> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
Just get the one that everyone else does: NIOSH TC-84A-0510 with protection against "Solid Particles, Organic Vapors, Acid Gases, Ammonia, Formaldehyde, Methylamine". Every lab buys this filter, or its manufacturer equivalent, for dealing with god-knows-what, because this one will handle just about anything.
> Also NIOSH-approved with
3MTM Canister CP3N for use
against CS, CN and as a P100
filter (TC-14G-0251) in riot
conditions, including those
with teargas (non-CBRN).
TC-84A-0510 is not a product. It is a certification for half-face masks + filter combos. The relevant certification for fullface masks+filters is TC-84A-070. (TC-84A-0701 or TC-84A-0704 more specifically)
I would definitely do a full-face mask. You can buy them at Lowes for painting. The half masks do nothing to protect your eyes. Also try to get Pxx filters as they withstand oils. Some chemicals are oil-soluble and normal Nxx cartridges can’t handle more than one exposure.
You need to provide a 3M part number. I had to clean up silicone oil and was looking up which solvent works best while being safe as possible and it turns out to be Ethyl Acetate. It works well but is quite potent. A few whiffs had me dizzy to the point where I almost lost balance so I immediately stopped and ordered PPE. I bought a 3M 6900 full face mask and 3M 60928 NIOSH filters for organics and acids. I could not smell anything, breathing was very smooth and natural, and no fogging. When I was finished I walk about 20 feet from the project, took the mask off and immediately was smacked in the face with the solvent fumes.
Agreed. I signed up for a paid subscription last month after I was linked to this article[1] which correctly, clearly, and accurately labeled the administration's claims about that incident as lies. This is journalism, and it is worth money. The half-assed "videos give the appearance of possibly contradicting..." decide-for-yourself garbage printed by places like the NYT isn't worth the cost of sending the bits over the wire.
Because? I'll be honest, haven't read much from The Verge so don't know much how it used to be/is now, but given they seemingly post articles about how to resist government tyranny, doesn't that make them a good website in general?
If what you're seeing right now is just "enforcing immigration laws", then yeah, obviously that's not government tyranny.
But I'm guessing you still have somewhat free media (?) and also could look at what international news channels report from the US, and they're not painting a picture of "enforcing immigration laws", just the amount of added vote restrictions that been going on should give you a heads up where it's about to go, and that the president is flirting with that the administration should actually be the ones responsible for the elections.
If you don't see it at this point, I'm afraid you might be blind.
I'm curious ... what are you doing in the comments section of an HN post about an article from The Verge then? I mean I look at articles from El Reg even though it's clearly yellow journalism, and sometimes I do it partially for the same reason someone might listen to a crazy person ranting on the train. Is that it?
I have a lot of criticisms on The Verge and stopped reading it a long time ago, but one of my favorite moments from them was when Jean-Louis Gassée trolled Nilay Patel and showed just how hypocritical he is and how fragile his ego was.
The thing I like about this article in particular is that it reads like one of their vapid and paid-for vacuum reviews (https://www.theverge.com/tech/625409/best-robot-vacuum-mops) but it's for civil disobedience. They are in a way poking fun at their own business model and it makes me laugh.
She didn't apologize, what she said can be used by any harasser. "I was harassed by girls when I was young so now I adopt their language and harass women." Also I didn't know there is so much harassment online towards young south korean girls.
sarcasm is easy, but I'd be willing to hear any earnest objections you have. my assumption is that you don't have any that aren't themselves hypocritical or contradictory, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!
ETA: in case it's unclear - this is not me trying to platform OP's bullshit in good faith, this is me calling OP's bluff. I don't think ne can articulate an actual problem that isn't self-defeating, which is why ne retreated to sarcastic implication rather than outright accusation.
Shouldn't we celebrate her for changing and growing instead of trolling the web for 12 year old edgelord tweets that she has already apologized for? Since then, she has become a strong and rational voice on the national scene, and there is nothing to indicate that her change in beliefs and apology was insincere.
I don't think I was a "bad person" at that age, but I certainly know that I said some cringy, stupid stuff that I certainly don't stand by anymore.
Quite frankly, I think it is far more concerning if a person can't identify anything that they have changed their mind on. We should celebrate when people change for the better instead of attacking them for having been bad in the past.
While NYT etc mostly stand back as the U.S. crosses the rubicon, what started as a freaking gadget review site seems to employ nearly all the journalists with actual gusto left in America.
There is no actionable advice other than "get something durable". Nothing about filtration grades and classes, about particle sizes to worry about, about how filter choice affects longevity, breathability, stamina, etc.
Were I to recommend anybody join anti-LE riots (which I categorically do not, in this case), and if I even remotely cared about the wellbeing of my readers (which the author categorically does not, in this case), I would touch on those types of details instead of stringing quasi-random affiliate links together using sob stories, self-congratulations and agitprop.
these are exciting new goalposts you’ve decided on! i, too, think that any article that is different from how i would’ve written it is a listicle.
if you’ll indulge me, i’m excited to hear how you have “categorically” decided the author’s intentions
one nit: surely you, of all hacker news commenters, have the extraordinary media literacy to know that the journos themselves do not add the affiliate links or pocket the affiliate link search arbitrage
I can recognize behaviors, just like everybody else. Columnists don't add affiliate parameters but they're incentivized or required to place the base links there by the publication they work for. Would you prefer that I clap like a seal at every punkwashed mainstream opinion piece? I'd rather not.
I mean if you'd only care about the affiliate revenue, there probably are better niches to serve than citizens looking to protect themselves from tear gas.
They have many other articles directly addressing the rising fascism. That you also only see this as an "affiliate link" without grokking the larger theme of "Gas Masks for tear gas" and how that relates to what ICE is doing to the US is part of the larger problem with contemporary media illiteracy.
Are you sure it is just media illiteracy? Unfortunately, there are people out there that just don't care enough or actually think the US "president" is right and the protestors are dead wrong.
According to Wikipedia's article on The Verge [1] "up to nine of Engadget's writers, editors, and product developers, including editor-in-chief Joshua Topolsky, left AOL, the company behind that website, to start a new gadget site."
It's disappointing that people increasingly expect news to be propaganda for their own side. The news is meant to be a source of information. You don't have to agree with everything an article has to say to get useful information from it. There is no shortage of quasi-revolutionary content on the internet if that's what you seek.
It's 2026. Everyone knows that NYT is written by liberal elites for liberal elites (or aspirational liberal elites) who spend their money to read such articles. Even if you think it's propaganda, legacy media offers information and a perspective that cannot be found everywhere else. It's the same reason why traders read Zero Hedge even if they aren't ultra-libertarians.
It may comfort you to imagine the NYT's editorial stance as the last thing holding back a revolution, but I guarantee that is not the case. That may change some wannabe liberal elites to wannabe revolutionaries, but the elites who you actually want to change will get their news someplace else.
I still wear one when I'm woodworking and working with harsh chemicals. Yes, I can still smell some of the chemical, but it's significantly reduced and I can spend a couple of hours working and leave without a headache, whereas no-masking it will make me physically sick in 10 minutes.
In other words, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Barring a perfect option that nobody has ever provided in these conversations, buy the full face mask that everyone is recommending. We're not talking about nerve agent or biologicals here. It's still better to take only 10% of a hit than a full hit.
3M 6800 have all but sold out on Amazon, probably because of this review. I had almost forgotten about Portland in 2020. This author has some great writing about the double standard of non-violence as well. 10/10
I would generally use McMaster-Carr whenever possible. They will almost never go out of stock even during national crises. I don't generally trust Amazon for items that I can't validate myself due to counterfeiting, e.g. there's a lot of fake knockoff HEPA filters marketed as OEM.
Zoro still has them in stock. If you haven't heard of them, they are a subsidiary of Grainger, a huge industrial supply company. They seem to ship even faster than Amazon in my experience.
Another curious historical point: gas masks were banned in Seattle, back in '99. I'm unsure if that was repealed because the majority of search results are about a new law regarding masked law enforcement.
Very recently Amazon announced they'd stop commingling inventory from 3P sellers and themselves, so it should be safer to buy from Amazon in the future (if you look at the specific seller), but still maybe worth avoiding for safety critical items which are difficult to inspect.
They still need to prove that isn't just a saying. A good reputation takes a long time to develop and very little time to lose. With safety gear I would not take a chance.
If I'm going to take a chance I'd prefer to support a small company. Amazon is big, but I find most things they sell I can find a small company that sells the same for a similar price and they know their product and so will direct me to what works well.
There are some products where I absolutely don't take a chance (I buy all my tourniquets/etc from North American Rescue, who are the manufacturer or primary distributor, directly), but for a while I wouldn't even buy razor blades from Amazon because of the risk of getting fakes or commingled inventory from shoplifting gangs. I'm willing to take that level of risk on Amazon policy now.
As long as they don't make a mistake and send the wrong thing anyway, which happens. You're always better off getting safety critical items from a place that only stocks from a verified supply chain, rather than a place that keep them separate merely by policy.
I'm a volunteer firefighter. I've wondered what my county's response would be if I borrowed one of our SCBAs (self-contained breathing apparatus) to wear to an anti-ICE demo or ICE observation incident. It's not a gas mask in the sense of this article, because as the name suggests it's an entirely self-contained air supply - it doesn't matter what is in the air at all. The one issue is that a single air bottle has a finite and not particularly long use time (if you're in good shape and don't panic, 20-30 minutes tops).
> I've wondered what my county's response would be if I borrowed one of our SCBAs (self-contained breathing apparatus) to wear to an anti-ICE demo or ICE observation incident
Give it a try and see what happens? Get your friends and colleagues with you too! In Europe (at least France and Spain) we have firefighters participating in protests, some of them not so non-violent, and there been clashes between firefighters and police (so unexpected) in the past, most recently just ~a week ago: https://www.albawaba.com/news/firefighter-protest-lille-esca....
I guess there is many reasons AFAB isn't an acronym people usually spread, can't think of any time firefighters generally been against the people.
When I joined, there an "orientation session" in which an existing firefighter said (paraphrasing): "there are lots of different attitudes towards the police, ranging from very positive to very negative, and I'm not going to get into that. But when firefighters show up, it's always the best part of whatever day anybody is having, and DO NOT FUCK THIS UP!"
As the author says, most incidents of this kind, in most of the world, are protesters vs. police, and the police have .. a substantial amount of control over whether the situation escalates or not. Including just opening up with tear gas.
Conflicting football ultras is basically the only case where this doesn't happen.
(I've never been near a tear gas kind of event, but I did witness the Met Police deploy "kettling" for the first time in May 2001, close enough that if I'd not paid attention to the police lines forming up I would have been imprisoned uncomfortably for eight hours.)
may I recommend the 3M 6000 Series Full Face Respirator?
since the feds are using projectiles on random persons, something that is shatter resistant / impact tested for eye protection should be prioritized. pair with some 60926 filters and you should be good to keep resisting.
Interesting read as a former CBRN instructor NCO (for a non-US military). A 3M 40mm is definitely the way to go with CP3N filters. They were once cheap but seem to be no longer
Put aside politics and anti-tear gas use cases: everyone should just have a full face gas mask for all hacker-ish activities, like painting. Skip half-face, go for full face. Half face models don't just leave eyes exposed but hurts the back of the neck. Maybe I'm wearing it wrong, but the headstrap for full face is much more comfortable. They also seal a lot better.
More random tidbits: You'd semi-obviously want a sacrificial wrap over the mask if you're painting, as well as few spare cartridges. There are particulate filters that are just regular paper masks, organic vapor cans for painting, and couple of acid cans for toxic gases. DYOR and use the right one for the task. Particulate filters go on top of gas cans on the iconic 3M 6000 series masks; it's not integrated to the can. The cans also technically only last few hours after opening the package, so technically you should be replacing twice daily. They also can't protect against large amounts of toxic substances like videogame thick green vapors of alien weapons, only what's somewhat casually filtered. In e.g. inside an active volcano, go for full scuba or something that don't rely on filtering. The reason why some masks use pair of cans as opposed to one can, is just for easier breathing. The performance on paper is the same; you can seal off one port with something if you want. The improvement is maybe not negligible, but you get used to breathing through masks quickly anyway. The mini mask that covers mouth and nose inside a full face mask exists to help clear condensation by forcing you to breathe in fresh air around its front surface and force exhalation through the exhaust valve. Removing it will steam up the shield. The air drawn in is filtered, but exhaust is not; if the wearer is infected with something, the mask won't help stop the spread.
> everyone should just have a full face gas mask for all hacker-ish activities, like painting
Not everyone who wears eyeglasses, unless you're prepared to add another several hundred dollars for the lens holder and set of prescription lenses.
I do have the 3M 6800 full face respirator but almost never use it. The silicone 7xxx series is much more comfortable than the rubber 6xxx series, and the 750x silicone half mask is reasonably priced. Augment with comfortable googles as necessary (vented ones work for me since I'm painting, not rioting).
There are a variety of open-source 3d-printable adapters to mount glasses within full-face respirators. I use a version of this design with my 3M 6000-series and an old pair of lenses:
BUT you need to worry about mucus membranes (ie eyeballs can absorb some chemical). The A1 bit means that it'll protect against PPM that are less than 1000, (No I don't know what the PPM of teargas is.)
I guess but cannot assert that decent hardened safety goggles will help against gas in the eyes, but again you'll need to look at the standards for that. the all in one mask/face shields are a better bet.
Your local hardware store should carry this kind of stuff, especially if they do any kind of plastic solvent or fibreglass/epoxy stuff.
If you are the kind of person who has forgone wearing a mask or eye protection while working on a project because you thought you could be done quickly or it was too much of a hassle or too uncomfortable for the "little" amount of benefit it would have: get a full-face mask.
Full-face masks are so much more comfortable, so much clearer to see through than those stupid yellow sunglasses that get scratched up all the time, so much easier to put everything on, so much better in every aspect that you won't think twice about it anymore. You walk into the shop, grab the one thing, put it on, and get to work.
"Military grade" listed as a pro on one of them... uhhh well true military grade means it was produced by the lowest bidder to just barely meet specifications in the test environment.
True, but in this case, civilian requirements may be "protects against ambient fumes" while the military specs are "protects against deadly gases that are designed to try to get around gas masks while standing up to impacts and sweat and still allowing enough freedom of movement to engage in combat". Like yeah a mil-spec spoon isn't going to be substantially different than a civilian spoon, but there are some things that even barely meeting the military standard at the lowest possible price is still better than what you get going for civilian specs
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
That would be the 3M™ Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Cartridge/Filter 60923 [0]. Replace after each exposure or 30 days after opening the sealed packaging for best results. A clean shave is important for a good air seal.
The absolute best protection would be a PAPR (powered air-purifying respirator) with a TR-6530N filter [1] installed. Something like the 3M Versaflo M-407SG[2] would fit the filter and provide impact resistance. It can be fitted with a Speedglas 9100XXi [3] (or 9100X/V) auto-darkening filter for protection against flashbangs.
This is an equivalent PAPR [3] with a better form factor which also includes ANSI Z87.1 rated impact-protection (helpful against projectiles) and auto-darkening lenses (helpful against flashbangs/pyrotechnics). It also still works fine even if you keep a beard. I believe this is part of the Optrel Helix product line, which advertises 14-hour battery life. However, the listing I linked does not come with organic vapor / acid-gas filtration. That requires a different form factor for the filter, the Optrel ABE1P Combination Filter [4] offers A1B1E1P certification (Protects against organic gases/vapors, inorganic gases, acid gases, and particulates)
As 'closewith added, "CBRN" or "NBC" masks are also a good option - they are rated for chemical/biological/radiation/nuclear contamination and are available as riot gear with good impact-resistance. Look for A2B2E2K2-P3 ratings / certification.
You could also look into something like the Joseph Leslie Dynamiks A3B3E3K3-rated Jumbo canister for 10000 ppm extended exposure. [5]
I've used the same 3M 6011 (organic vapor) filter for years, for tasks like cleaning with ammonia where I'm not really worried about hazardous exposure just nuisance [0]. And it's lasted just fine (extremely off-label use, of course). So with something like tear gas where you're not worried about actual toxicity per se, I'd think that subjective experience would be fine for knowing when it needs to be changed. If you want to be paranoid, it seems like you could also carry a backup fresh set still in the sealed foil.
With the prices for respirators going up (/me gestures at federal "government" attacking our own cities), if I wanted to save money I'd get a knock-off full face respirator from Amazon (or Ali if you're comfortable transiting the import blockade with this specific item), and then genuine cartridges (NOT from Amazon obviously, lol).
[0] for most things I do, I use the 2097 filters which are primarily particulate with just a small amount of activated charcoal for "nuisance vapors". This is all generally with half-face 7500 bodies.
My own experience is that fit is as/more important than filters, and who knows how well civvies will fit their CBRN gear. It's _oppressively_ uncomfortable!
One of the things this article doesn't cover is how resistant to "non-lethal" ammunition these gas masks are. That's something to keep in mind if you want to take this article seriously. Looking at the Mira Tactical Gas Mask CM-6M referenced in the article though, they do say that their mask does comply with EN 168 impact protection, which includes that kind of ammunition. Here's a Nieman Lab article that is related: https://www.niemanlab.org/2026/01/what-a-safety-expert-think...
The problem I found was that some of them are designed to keep particulates out but aren't as worried about also keeping particulates in as well. This was relevant-circa 2020. No idea how these rank on that metric.
I'd say basically all of them in this target market - a respirator with check valves is much more comfortable to use.
For the beginning of Covid I modded my 7500 (half face) to remove the check valve flaps and seal up what would normally be the exhaust ports, making both inhale and exhale go through the 2297 filters. It was harder to breathe, more humid, and developed liquid water accumulation over longer periods.
I would think that if you did the same thing with a full face respirator, it would immediately fog up. If you look at the flow path on them, it's something like atmosphere -> filter -> top face portion -> mouth nose portion -> atmosphere, presumably to keep the part you need to see out of full of dry air.
Actually, just a normal <$10 N95 [0][1] (without an exhalation valve). But they won't stop chemicals, just particles. My family have found they prevent COVID transmission from masked sick members to unmasked family members, as well as from unmasked sick members to masked family members.
An amazon affiliate link wrapped in the mantle of edgy resistance. Ignoring that, why would anybody take this site serious for gasmask recommendations? Shallow and fast-food level information.
If you let ideology trump facts, why are you surprised when the "other side" does the same? Those who believe in facts watch both in horror from the sidelines.
We live in a world increasingly becoming hypercapitalistic in every facet of life with problems and solutions being marketed together, all fed with algorithms.
"Have you got chronic sebhorric dermatitis, click this link to make it go away".
"You may be eligible for compensation if you bought a Volkswagen"
"Fight the corrupt fascist government, buy a gas mask here"
"Fight the corrupt socialist government, buy a year's supply of Iodine tablets"
There's a particulate filter and an organic vapor cartridge, and you're primarily worried about the organic vapor cartridge which has a peel-off seal when you assemble it.
40 hours of use or 30 days, whatever comes first, it says.
It's probably not what I would bet my life on, but I've used a bunch of these up doing wood finishing and cleaning. You swap them when you start to smell anything through the cartridges, because it's not actively handling organic vapors anymore. I think 30-40 hours of real exposure use is realistic.
I typically wipe down & pack masks with organic vapor cartridges into a ziplock bag filled with paper towels when I'm done for the day. This ziplock thing is just what I started doing after leaving it out on the counter and found the cartridges weren't effective the next day. This is entirely unscientific, but I think they last longer stored like this.
For folks who are actually going to go down this rabbit hole, yes the 3M 6800 series and the GVS respirators are great, and work with very similar cartridge-style filters. That said, a mask alone is not sufficient, and I really recommend you get a Tyvek bunny suit also to protect your skin against chemical exposure. Given the current weather, it's relatively easy to cover over the bunny suit with your outerwear like a hoodie so it's not even necessarily visibly super-obvious, and it will do a lot to help protect you. It's not just your eyes, nose, and mouth you want to protect but every area of your skin ideally.
Also tear-gas canisters are very hot when fired, because tear gas is produced and released via a pyrotechnic reaction inside the canister, basically burning a dry chemical to produce the gas. I recommend wearing a heavy (7mil or 9mil) nitrile glove with your bunny suit and over that wearing leather welding gloves or heat-rated mechanics gloves if you expect to encounter tear gas canisters so you can pick them up and throw them back.
Also, be aware that the filter canisters on most masks are only good for about 45 minutes to 2 hours (depending on exposure levels) when used in an environment where you are actively being exposed to the chemicals you want to filter. You need additional replacement filters that are /sealed/ in their packaging to swap out to in the field. Good luck out there.
In many cases, especially for the higher end models, you can spend in the neighborhood of $100 to get an Rx face-shield. On the note of matters that didn't seem to come up much in the article, but that I feel like people should know:
The kind of cartridge you need to withstand teargas is not an N95, as the top comment points out it's quite a bit more involved. The downside of that other than cost and duration of the filter is that you'll feel a lot more resistance on inhaling than you're used to. For some people the combination of something on their face and the feeling of restricted breathing is unbearable, and mid-tear gas attack is a terrible time to realize that.
Consider also that this becomes far more important if you're working hard, say running around or fighting. Anyone who has it in their head to give this a try should keep those factors in mind, as well as get a kit to properly fit-test because again... mid-attack is a terrible time to realize that your fit isn't up to snuff. Likewise with training to don and doff.
In a lot of ways the article feels like clickbait that's extremely self-aware, but not really concerned with the practical reality of what they're implying.
Honestly the 3M 60923 cartridges don't restrict breathing at all. They have great airflow. I've used them all day long in chemical plants, no one complains about that.
Seconded. I've used those exact cartridges. Not for as long of shifts as you, but I'd say the face mask fit is much more important for that.
My DIY-perspective tip is that when you're getting to know the respirator, you can take the filter cartridges off and put your hands over the input ports to feel what fully restricted breathing feels like, make it a known sensation in case it ends up happening. Likewise you can cover the output port and breathe out to do a kind of rough fit test.
Yes, in addition to inserts which are custom to the mask, there are small frames with a thin rubber band to keep them on you. They were great for roughhousing occasions as well as under mask. The key part is the thinness and impermeability of the band allows for a good seal.
As someone with big bulky eye glass lenses and frames I looked up the solution for the CM-6 derived masks, https://www.rigad.com/avec-spectacle-insert-for-cm-6-masks. Sounds like you'd have to get new lenses just for it and put 'em in, and the field of view is not great, but it is feasible.
Just how big are your glasses? These aren't goggles that try to seal around your eye sockets, they are shields that seal around your face, sitting in front of your face by an inch or two. If you're worried about the glasses temple breaking the seal, it's still going to provide the vast majority of benefit.
Street protests were an effective tool for suffrage, anti-segregation, labor rights, civil rights, anti-colonialism, gay rights to name a few. It is disingenuous to associate this with the Waco-style idiocy.
But that is exactly what the flag button is there for?! - but this discussion has been had numerous times, and the two sides will never agree.
Safest to flag (or not) as you see fit, because you are a good person rather than an evil one. Then rely on the admins to rescue needlessly ultraflagged articles as appropriate. They are pretty good at doing the right thing.
You're saying the discussion of which chemical respirators to wear to protests has been had numerous times?
I'd say this is a productive topic of conversation for many HN users. There are not "two sides" on this topic, unless we're talking 3M vs MSA. The people flagging or commenting with opposing political views are disrupting conversation, likely because they they disagree with how the topic has been framed. This is exactly like PHP fans going into a Python thread and telling everyone Python sucks, disrupting the people who just wanted to discuss getting things done within the framework of Python. They might have some valid points, but they're not germane to civil discussion.
No, I was referring to discussion of the semantics of flagging. Apologies; I thought it was phrased clearly enough, but, perhaps not. (Maybe I should have said "that discussion" rather than "this discussion"? This is my native tongue, so you can't trust me to get this stuff perfectly right.)
Ah, I don't know that there was a problem with your phrasing. Rather it's that the meta-discussion of flagging is so inactionable that the possibility didn't even cross my mind. Mea culpa.
All gas masks simply buy the wearer time, and not much time at that...
Automotive Painter shops use an actual filtered external fresh-air feed medical-grade pump, as it avoids whatever mystery compounds are in various paints and cleaners.
Don't cheap out on PPE, as 3M does make good quality filters. =3
The reality is that tear gas is not an effective riot control tool. It works fine against spontaneous mobs of sports fans after their team loses, but it's not especially effective against prepared insurrectionists.
The last time the US faced this level of organized political resistance against lawful federal authority, the Army and National Guard routinely used fixed bayonets to control segregationist protesters. The same technique would work today, but with modern rifles being significantly shorter and hence being less effective bayonet platforms, a dedicated spear might be the better option.
Such weapons, employed in a close-order formation, would be much less lethal than they might seem at first blush. Historical data from 18th and 19th century conflicts shows that, even in battles where bayonet charges happened, there was still an extremely low rate of actual bayonet casualties. Even trained and disciplined soldiers will break and rout rather than let themselves be stabbed with bayonets (or, presumably, spears).
Excellent point, and I think those bombings are not as well remembered as they should be. However, none of those bombings happened at the encouragement of and with the tacit cooperation of state government authorities.
I'd say Jan 6, 2021. But there are so many examples between "bayonets" and now. 2020 Seattle CHOP, 2014/2016 Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, 2011 Occupy Wall Street, 1999 Battle in Seattle, 1992 Ruby Ridge Standoff, 1969 People's Park, the entire civil rights movement era, 1946 Battle of Athens, 1921 Battle of Blair Mountain.
I intentionally alternated between left wing / right wing events. These things aren't limited to one side, and they're somewhat frequent, if a bit cyclical.
Maybe we should talk about the first time the US had this level of political resistance against "lawful authority". That seems like a better analogy for what's going on here.
Also I feel compelled to point out that "lawful authority" does not imply "authority acting lawfully". The difference is painfully demonstrated by the existence of a thread discussing the use of respirators in response to government jackboots suppressing lawful first amendment activity. The obvious alternative is to let the protests happen, per our Constitution.
> government jackboots suppressing lawful first amendment activity
If that was actually happening, I would be opposed to it. The only people suppressing lawful first amendment activity were Don Lemon and his friends invading a church, interrupting services, and blocking the exits as they screamed abuse at the parishioners.
We're in a topic about tear gas being used to attack protestors. You yourself opened up this thread by saying that tear gas isn't the right answer, so it doesn't seem like you're denying this activity is happening. The only remaining angle I see is that you're claiming that the bulk of protestors who have been attacked were doing something illegal to prompt it? That is a tall claim, but I am of course open to evidence.
Because to me, it looks like you're merely doing whataboutism to the latest spectacle your media bubble is showing you. That you add "If that was actually happening, I would be opposed to it" is most concerning as it indicates how far your cognitive dissonance is able to be stretched.
> We're in a topic about tear gas being used to attack protestors.
You say protestors, I say rioters and organized physical resistance to legitimate law enforcement. If you think that’s a “tall claim” you’re the one in a media bubble.
So to be clear, you are claiming that every person at every protest where ICE has attacked the crowd was looking to actively physically impede law enforcement?
That’s never been the standard for riot control, but frankly I would be skeptical of anyone who was in the middle of a rioting mob who claimed they were minding their own business and playing candy crush on their phone.
The infighting is so tedious. We really need to peacefully explore the "national divorce" idea again. In the 1860s the concept was too intermingled with the evil of slavery to be considered separately.
But realistically, instead of both sides hating each other to the point of perpetual violence, why not just have 2 or 3 countries in which we can all be happy? Trade and travel agreements are easy to establish by treaty. It doesn't have to be this way.
> We really need to peacefully explore the "national divorce" idea again. In the 1860s the concept was too intermingled with the evil of slavery to be considered separately.
The idea is still just as intermingled with fundamental human rights, plus the sides are more deeply geographically intermingled than in the 1860s, largely because the victors decided not to really root out the evil they had defeated an instead allowed it to metastasize. There may be no peaceful resolution; there is certainly no possibility of a peaceful divorce.
Because this time, the Mason-Dixon line runs through our back yards and down our neighborhood streets.
The time to split the country was when the Confederacy seceded. We should have just let them go, but that would have meant ignoring a human-rights atrocity, and in any case it would have resulted in a shared border with a belligerent enemy nation and ultimately with a failed state. It's definitely too late now.
Slavery still is—and will always be—the issue. You think the Black populations of Alabama, Louisiana, and Florida want to be ruled by uncontested white supremacists?
It is the historical task of our species to abolish slavery. In every generation we've got to reeducate ourselves about its evils.
Posting this article in this format reminds me of truly good story writing. Would've been a top 3 pieces of writing all time for me without all of the anecdotes in between. All of the information you need to know is already written without all of the in-your-faceness of the bridge paragraphs between reviews.
Still an amazing story, props to the Verge. But could've been an all time great.
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
Great writing.
>When I eventually sat down to write my article about the Portland protests, I had a strange kind of epiphany, if it can even be called that. Out in the real world, when drowning in tear gas and adrenaline
Bad writing.
This is a genius product review right now for all the reasons everyone else thinks it is. I didn't need to read a single one of the authors personal experiences to understand the underlying message, or read ~100 words about their internal struggles to classify Portland as a riot versus a protest. The lack of brevity and conciseness seriously undercuts the absolute geniusness of maliciously compliant product reviews about gas masks in our current political climate.
My comment is about the art of subtlety. Again, this is an amazing article, but it's literally just been flagged by HN because it waxes poetic about politics instead of allowing all of that to be there without saying it. We can all read between the lines.
That makes sense to me. I really enjoyed the personal anecdotes and I thought they made the article a lot stronger for me, but a dry gas mask review would have also been an excellent, albeit different, article.
No, it's actually you who is the one who is misunderstanding.
The product review, while it does stand on its own, is not the main purpose.
The point is to render absurd the incredulous comments from Pam Bondi, "How did these people go out and get gas masks?" Bondi did not ask this question to receive an answer, "oh, they go to Home Depot and get model X-54-Whatever." The point of her question was to cast aspersion on the protestors, to attempt to delegitimize their grievances by painting them as paid, professional agitators. It's the sort of "I'm just sayin'" bullshit rhetoric we've all had to deal with from racist uncles at Thanksgiving for the last 25 years.
Jeong's article works by failing to engage Bondi's comments on Bondi's grounds. Jeong's use of product review as a structure for her article is a conceit that treats Bondi's comments as a legitimate request for product reviews, side-stepping the concept that only paid professionals could ever know anything about gas masks, because information on the Internet is and wants to be free.
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
Just get the one that everyone else does: NIOSH TC-84A-0510 with protection against "Solid Particles, Organic Vapors, Acid Gases, Ammonia, Formaldehyde, Methylamine". Every lab buys this filter, or its manufacturer equivalent, for dealing with god-knows-what, because this one will handle just about anything.
Article is actually wrong and they do provide some advice on this.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/339742O/3m-full-facepiec...
> Also NIOSH-approved with 3MTM Canister CP3N for use against CS, CN and as a P100 filter (TC-14G-0251) in riot conditions, including those with teargas (non-CBRN).
TC-84A-0510 is not a product. It is a certification for half-face masks + filter combos. The relevant certification for fullface masks+filters is TC-84A-070. (TC-84A-0701 or TC-84A-0704 more specifically)
Handy that McMaster Carr has them 5541T605 Edit, I just noticed you posted the same link that's funny.
I would definitely do a full-face mask. You can buy them at Lowes for painting. The half masks do nothing to protect your eyes. Also try to get Pxx filters as they withstand oils. Some chemicals are oil-soluble and normal Nxx cartridges can’t handle more than one exposure.
You need to provide a 3M part number. I had to clean up silicone oil and was looking up which solvent works best while being safe as possible and it turns out to be Ethyl Acetate. It works well but is quite potent. A few whiffs had me dizzy to the point where I almost lost balance so I immediately stopped and ordered PPE. I bought a 3M 6900 full face mask and 3M 60928 NIOSH filters for organics and acids. I could not smell anything, breathing was very smooth and natural, and no fogging. When I was finished I walk about 20 feet from the project, took the mask off and immediately was smacked in the face with the solvent fumes.
The Verge has truly become one of the most respected sites on the web. Some of the best reporting, tech or otherwise, is being done there. Kudos
Agreed. I signed up for a paid subscription last month after I was linked to this article[1] which correctly, clearly, and accurately labeled the administration's claims about that incident as lies. This is journalism, and it is worth money. The half-assed "videos give the appearance of possibly contradicting..." decide-for-yourself garbage printed by places like the NYT isn't worth the cost of sending the bits over the wire.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/policy/859055/minneapolis-renee-goo...
Now that's a hilarious comment. The Verge has become a joke website.
> The Verge has become a joke website.
Because? I'll be honest, haven't read much from The Verge so don't know much how it used to be/is now, but given they seemingly post articles about how to resist government tyranny, doesn't that make them a good website in general?
Yes. Unless you support govt tyranny.
Government tyranny is when customs and border protection enforce immigration laws? ok lol
If what you're seeing right now is just "enforcing immigration laws", then yeah, obviously that's not government tyranny.
But I'm guessing you still have somewhat free media (?) and also could look at what international news channels report from the US, and they're not painting a picture of "enforcing immigration laws", just the amount of added vote restrictions that been going on should give you a heads up where it's about to go, and that the president is flirting with that the administration should actually be the ones responsible for the elections.
If you don't see it at this point, I'm afraid you might be blind.
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I'm curious ... what are you doing in the comments section of an HN post about an article from The Verge then? I mean I look at articles from El Reg even though it's clearly yellow journalism, and sometimes I do it partially for the same reason someone might listen to a crazy person ranting on the train. Is that it?
Because? It doesn't align with your views?
I have a lot of criticisms on The Verge and stopped reading it a long time ago, but one of my favorite moments from them was when Jean-Louis Gassée trolled Nilay Patel and showed just how hypocritical he is and how fragile his ego was.
I wouldn't call it "reporting". More like opinion pieces with some facts here and there, but also a ton of flat out lies and half truths.
The thing I like about this article in particular is that it reads like one of their vapid and paid-for vacuum reviews (https://www.theverge.com/tech/625409/best-robot-vacuum-mops) but it's for civil disobedience. They are in a way poking fun at their own business model and it makes me laugh.
Yeah, this is quality content right here,
> Durable enough to survive a scuffle with a right-wing extremist, even if the bones of your hand do not
Can you clarify what you take issue with?
The author in particular strikes me as a thoughtful, considerate and unbiased individual, a paragon of inclusivity: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45052534
some dumb old troll tweets that someone wrote years ago (and publicly apologized for) shouldn't disqualified them from being a great reporter.
hell by that metric basically noone who ever wrote something publicly of any substance is qualified
also ever visited twitter? the stuff she wrote is pretty tame even by 2022 cancel culture standards
She didn't apologize, what she said can be used by any harasser. "I was harassed by girls when I was young so now I adopt their language and harass women." Also I didn't know there is so much harassment online towards young south korean girls.
sarcasm is easy, but I'd be willing to hear any earnest objections you have. my assumption is that you don't have any that aren't themselves hypocritical or contradictory, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!
ETA: in case it's unclear - this is not me trying to platform OP's bullshit in good faith, this is me calling OP's bluff. I don't think ne can articulate an actual problem that isn't self-defeating, which is why ne retreated to sarcastic implication rather than outright accusation.
Shouldn't we celebrate her for changing and growing instead of trolling the web for 12 year old edgelord tweets that she has already apologized for? Since then, she has become a strong and rational voice on the national scene, and there is nothing to indicate that her change in beliefs and apology was insincere.
I don't think I was a "bad person" at that age, but I certainly know that I said some cringy, stupid stuff that I certainly don't stand by anymore.
Quite frankly, I think it is far more concerning if a person can't identify anything that they have changed their mind on. We should celebrate when people change for the better instead of attacking them for having been bad in the past.
Cancel culture.
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Don't fool yourself that buying into the culture war has anything to do with being grounded in reality.
While NYT etc mostly stand back as the U.S. crosses the rubicon, what started as a freaking gadget review site seems to employ nearly all the journalists with actual gusto left in America.
The gusto to post an Amazon affiliate listicle?
this article has 19 paragraphs of text in just the main article body, making three recommendations.
it’s pretty rich to both decry media literacy issues in sibling comments while completely elastically using the word “listicle”
There is no actionable advice other than "get something durable". Nothing about filtration grades and classes, about particle sizes to worry about, about how filter choice affects longevity, breathability, stamina, etc.
Were I to recommend anybody join anti-LE riots (which I categorically do not, in this case), and if I even remotely cared about the wellbeing of my readers (which the author categorically does not, in this case), I would touch on those types of details instead of stringing quasi-random affiliate links together using sob stories, self-congratulations and agitprop.
these are exciting new goalposts you’ve decided on! i, too, think that any article that is different from how i would’ve written it is a listicle.
if you’ll indulge me, i’m excited to hear how you have “categorically” decided the author’s intentions
one nit: surely you, of all hacker news commenters, have the extraordinary media literacy to know that the journos themselves do not add the affiliate links or pocket the affiliate link search arbitrage
I can recognize behaviors, just like everybody else. Columnists don't add affiliate parameters but they're incentivized or required to place the base links there by the publication they work for. Would you prefer that I clap like a seal at every punkwashed mainstream opinion piece? I'd rather not.
> mainstream opinion piece
my job here is done, but i’m here if you need any more help
VIVA LA REVOLUTION LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE!
I don't know...the subject matter stirs the pot nicely in my opinion
I read it as an insightful analysis of the concept of tear-gassing crowds disguised as an affiliate listicle.
Bonus points if someone actually puts some money towards a human journalist by just treating it as an affiliate listicle.
I mean if you'd only care about the affiliate revenue, there probably are better niches to serve than citizens looking to protect themselves from tear gas.
They have many other articles directly addressing the rising fascism. That you also only see this as an "affiliate link" without grokking the larger theme of "Gas Masks for tear gas" and how that relates to what ICE is doing to the US is part of the larger problem with contemporary media illiteracy.
Are you sure it is just media illiteracy? Unfortunately, there are people out there that just don't care enough or actually think the US "president" is right and the protestors are dead wrong.
The Brown-Red Scare is the largest contemporary failure in media literacy.
Wired is doing pretty well on that front, too
Are you thinking of Wirecutter? They are a sub brand of NYT, whereas The Verge is part of Vox Media
According to Wikipedia's article on The Verge [1] "up to nine of Engadget's writers, editors, and product developers, including editor-in-chief Joshua Topolsky, left AOL, the company behind that website, to start a new gadget site."
So apparently they were once a 'gadget site'
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Verge
Also Wired and weirdly People Magazine (and before they were all fired J17)
It's disappointing that people increasingly expect news to be propaganda for their own side. The news is meant to be a source of information. You don't have to agree with everything an article has to say to get useful information from it. There is no shortage of quasi-revolutionary content on the internet if that's what you seek.
News has always been propaganda for one side, its just sometimes more or less obvious.
Personally I prefer the ones that make it clear where they stand as opposed to subtly influencing you while masquerading as "neutral".
It's 2026. Everyone knows that NYT is written by liberal elites for liberal elites (or aspirational liberal elites) who spend their money to read such articles. Even if you think it's propaganda, legacy media offers information and a perspective that cannot be found everywhere else. It's the same reason why traders read Zero Hedge even if they aren't ultra-libertarians.
It may comfort you to imagine the NYT's editorial stance as the last thing holding back a revolution, but I guarantee that is not the case. That may change some wannabe liberal elites to wannabe revolutionaries, but the elites who you actually want to change will get their news someplace else.
I think you misunderstood my comment?
I mostly agree with you, I also read zero hedge, al jazeera and other media whose stance I don't broadly agree with.
To me NYT is actually pretty conservative, but YMMV
When information is politicized (eg do vaccines work) then being a source of information can been seen as propaganda for your side.
It's disappointing that people don't know the difference between having a stance and propaganda.
If it's just a stance, then why care so much about it? Presumably it's so that this stance influences their readers.
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What does that mean?
I suspect it means he doesn't like their takes.
Yellow journalism is yellow, no matter which side it's on.
What does that mean?
Note that if you have a beard you should be aware that these types of masks don't work well.
https://pekesafety.com/blogs/news/a-respirator-that-works-wi...
I still wear one when I'm woodworking and working with harsh chemicals. Yes, I can still smell some of the chemical, but it's significantly reduced and I can spend a couple of hours working and leave without a headache, whereas no-masking it will make me physically sick in 10 minutes.
In other words, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Barring a perfect option that nobody has ever provided in these conversations, buy the full face mask that everyone is recommending. We're not talking about nerve agent or biologicals here. It's still better to take only 10% of a hit than a full hit.
I still remember old bioweapons threat levels. Level 1 was no threat. At level 3 everyone was required to shave.
how soon until we see amazon recommendations: frequently bought together with shaver
3M 6800 have all but sold out on Amazon, probably because of this review. I had almost forgotten about Portland in 2020. This author has some great writing about the double standard of non-violence as well. 10/10
I would generally use McMaster-Carr whenever possible. They will almost never go out of stock even during national crises. I don't generally trust Amazon for items that I can't validate myself due to counterfeiting, e.g. there's a lot of fake knockoff HEPA filters marketed as OEM.
3M 6000 full-face masks: https://www.mcmaster.com/5541T605/
The image shows just a particulate filter, but the listing actually includes 3M bayonet-style cartridges for chemical exposure.
Zoro still has them in stock. If you haven't heard of them, they are a subsidiary of Grainger, a huge industrial supply company. They seem to ship even faster than Amazon in my experience.
https://www.zoro.com/3m-full-facepiece-reusable-respirator-w...
Another curious historical point: gas masks were banned in Seattle, back in '99. I'm unsure if that was repealed because the majority of search results are about a new law regarding masked law enforcement.
https://www.historylink.org/File/2145
Buying safety equipment on Amazon is extremely dumb. You won't know that you got a fake until it's too late.
Very recently Amazon announced they'd stop commingling inventory from 3P sellers and themselves, so it should be safer to buy from Amazon in the future (if you look at the specific seller), but still maybe worth avoiding for safety critical items which are difficult to inspect.
They still need to prove that isn't just a saying. A good reputation takes a long time to develop and very little time to lose. With safety gear I would not take a chance.
If I'm going to take a chance I'd prefer to support a small company. Amazon is big, but I find most things they sell I can find a small company that sells the same for a similar price and they know their product and so will direct me to what works well.
There are some products where I absolutely don't take a chance (I buy all my tourniquets/etc from North American Rescue, who are the manufacturer or primary distributor, directly), but for a while I wouldn't even buy razor blades from Amazon because of the risk of getting fakes or commingled inventory from shoplifting gangs. I'm willing to take that level of risk on Amazon policy now.
As long as they don't make a mistake and send the wrong thing anyway, which happens. You're always better off getting safety critical items from a place that only stocks from a verified supply chain, rather than a place that keep them separate merely by policy.
I'm a volunteer firefighter. I've wondered what my county's response would be if I borrowed one of our SCBAs (self-contained breathing apparatus) to wear to an anti-ICE demo or ICE observation incident. It's not a gas mask in the sense of this article, because as the name suggests it's an entirely self-contained air supply - it doesn't matter what is in the air at all. The one issue is that a single air bottle has a finite and not particularly long use time (if you're in good shape and don't panic, 20-30 minutes tops).
> I've wondered what my county's response would be if I borrowed one of our SCBAs (self-contained breathing apparatus) to wear to an anti-ICE demo or ICE observation incident
Give it a try and see what happens? Get your friends and colleagues with you too! In Europe (at least France and Spain) we have firefighters participating in protests, some of them not so non-violent, and there been clashes between firefighters and police (so unexpected) in the past, most recently just ~a week ago: https://www.albawaba.com/news/firefighter-protest-lille-esca....
I guess there is many reasons AFAB isn't an acronym people usually spread, can't think of any time firefighters generally been against the people.
When I joined, there an "orientation session" in which an existing firefighter said (paraphrasing): "there are lots of different attitudes towards the police, ranging from very positive to very negative, and I'm not going to get into that. But when firefighters show up, it's always the best part of whatever day anybody is having, and DO NOT FUCK THIS UP!"
:)
Oh that is beautiful :)
For myself, it’s the feeling of: thank fuck; the grownups have arrived. shoulders lower, everyone takes a deep breath
Do they refill with air? Or do you need concentrated oxygen or something?
They are refilled with air at 4000 PSI. The bottles are heavy and large, so you cannot effectively carry around a spare.
Just air. Very similar to a scuba tank, but typically composite instead of aluminum.
You wouldn’t want to be breathing anything enriched with oxygen in a fire.
"I had forgotten that there could ever be domestic conflicts where law enforcement were not themselves belligerents."
ouch. Must be weird living where you live.
As the author says, most incidents of this kind, in most of the world, are protesters vs. police, and the police have .. a substantial amount of control over whether the situation escalates or not. Including just opening up with tear gas.
Conflicting football ultras is basically the only case where this doesn't happen.
(I've never been near a tear gas kind of event, but I did witness the Met Police deploy "kettling" for the first time in May 2001, close enough that if I'd not paid attention to the police lines forming up I would have been imprisoned uncomfortably for eight hours.)
Does anyone know if any of these respirators can be sized to fit a smaller than average 4-year-old?
If they start rolling through random neighborhoods and gassing people in their homes like they did in Minneapolis, I’d like to be prepared.
maybe consider a smoke hood rather than something that needs to fit snugly on their face
Mira makes a few options for children. https://www.mirasafety.com/products/cbrn-child-escape-respir...
I have no personal experience with Mira; I’ve been looking for a respirator myself because I live in Portland.
may I recommend the 3M 6000 Series Full Face Respirator?
since the feds are using projectiles on random persons, something that is shatter resistant / impact tested for eye protection should be prioritized. pair with some 60926 filters and you should be good to keep resisting.
Interesting read as a former CBRN instructor NCO (for a non-US military). A 3M 40mm is definitely the way to go with CP3N filters. They were once cheap but seem to be no longer
Put aside politics and anti-tear gas use cases: everyone should just have a full face gas mask for all hacker-ish activities, like painting. Skip half-face, go for full face. Half face models don't just leave eyes exposed but hurts the back of the neck. Maybe I'm wearing it wrong, but the headstrap for full face is much more comfortable. They also seal a lot better.
More random tidbits: You'd semi-obviously want a sacrificial wrap over the mask if you're painting, as well as few spare cartridges. There are particulate filters that are just regular paper masks, organic vapor cans for painting, and couple of acid cans for toxic gases. DYOR and use the right one for the task. Particulate filters go on top of gas cans on the iconic 3M 6000 series masks; it's not integrated to the can. The cans also technically only last few hours after opening the package, so technically you should be replacing twice daily. They also can't protect against large amounts of toxic substances like videogame thick green vapors of alien weapons, only what's somewhat casually filtered. In e.g. inside an active volcano, go for full scuba or something that don't rely on filtering. The reason why some masks use pair of cans as opposed to one can, is just for easier breathing. The performance on paper is the same; you can seal off one port with something if you want. The improvement is maybe not negligible, but you get used to breathing through masks quickly anyway. The mini mask that covers mouth and nose inside a full face mask exists to help clear condensation by forcing you to breathe in fresh air around its front surface and force exhalation through the exhaust valve. Removing it will steam up the shield. The air drawn in is filtered, but exhaust is not; if the wearer is infected with something, the mask won't help stop the spread.
TL;DR: gas masks is its own mini rabbit hole.
> everyone should just have a full face gas mask for all hacker-ish activities, like painting
Not everyone who wears eyeglasses, unless you're prepared to add another several hundred dollars for the lens holder and set of prescription lenses.
I do have the 3M 6800 full face respirator but almost never use it. The silicone 7xxx series is much more comfortable than the rubber 6xxx series, and the 750x silicone half mask is reasonably priced. Augment with comfortable googles as necessary (vented ones work for me since I'm painting, not rioting).
There are a variety of open-source 3d-printable adapters to mount glasses within full-face respirators. I use a version of this design with my 3M 6000-series and an old pair of lenses:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4672869
For the UK/EU types, GVS make a good half resporator mask:
https://www.gvs.com/en/catalog/elipse-p3-respirator
This one is good for standard DIY duties that do not involve chemicals (ie cutting, grinding, sanding)
there is a quite readable guide you can get here: https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg53.pdf
For chemical resistance: https://www.gvs.com/en/catalog/elipse-a1p3-respirator
BUT you need to worry about mucus membranes (ie eyeballs can absorb some chemical). The A1 bit means that it'll protect against PPM that are less than 1000, (No I don't know what the PPM of teargas is.)
I guess but cannot assert that decent hardened safety goggles will help against gas in the eyes, but again you'll need to look at the standards for that. the all in one mask/face shields are a better bet.
Your local hardware store should carry this kind of stuff, especially if they do any kind of plastic solvent or fibreglass/epoxy stuff.
If you are the kind of person who has forgone wearing a mask or eye protection while working on a project because you thought you could be done quickly or it was too much of a hassle or too uncomfortable for the "little" amount of benefit it would have: get a full-face mask.
Full-face masks are so much more comfortable, so much clearer to see through than those stupid yellow sunglasses that get scratched up all the time, so much easier to put everything on, so much better in every aspect that you won't think twice about it anymore. You walk into the shop, grab the one thing, put it on, and get to work.
"Military grade" listed as a pro on one of them... uhhh well true military grade means it was produced by the lowest bidder to just barely meet specifications in the test environment.
True, but in this case, civilian requirements may be "protects against ambient fumes" while the military specs are "protects against deadly gases that are designed to try to get around gas masks while standing up to impacts and sweat and still allowing enough freedom of movement to engage in combat". Like yeah a mil-spec spoon isn't going to be substantially different than a civilian spoon, but there are some things that even barely meeting the military standard at the lowest possible price is still better than what you get going for civilian specs
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
That would be the 3M™ Organic Vapor/Acid Gas Cartridge/Filter 60923 [0]. Replace after each exposure or 30 days after opening the sealed packaging for best results. A clean shave is important for a good air seal.
The absolute best protection would be a PAPR (powered air-purifying respirator) with a TR-6530N filter [1] installed. Something like the 3M Versaflo M-407SG[2] would fit the filter and provide impact resistance. It can be fitted with a Speedglas 9100XXi [3] (or 9100X/V) auto-darkening filter for protection against flashbangs.
This is an equivalent PAPR [3] with a better form factor which also includes ANSI Z87.1 rated impact-protection (helpful against projectiles) and auto-darkening lenses (helpful against flashbangs/pyrotechnics). It also still works fine even if you keep a beard. I believe this is part of the Optrel Helix product line, which advertises 14-hour battery life. However, the listing I linked does not come with organic vapor / acid-gas filtration. That requires a different form factor for the filter, the Optrel ABE1P Combination Filter [4] offers A1B1E1P certification (Protects against organic gases/vapors, inorganic gases, acid gases, and particulates)
As 'closewith added, "CBRN" or "NBC" masks are also a good option - they are rated for chemical/biological/radiation/nuclear contamination and are available as riot gear with good impact-resistance. Look for A2B2E2K2-P3 ratings / certification.
You could also look into something like the Joseph Leslie Dynamiks A3B3E3K3-rated Jumbo canister for 10000 ppm extended exposure. [5]
0: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/dc/v000075263/
1: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/cartridges/manufacturer-mo...
2: https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1892506O/3m-versaflo-m-4...
3: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/speedglas-welding-helmets-us/spe...
3: https://www.mcmaster.com/9258n17/
4: https://optrel.us/product/upgradekit-combifilter-swiss-air-5...
5: https://www.josephlesliedynamiks.com/brochures/Gas_Filters.p...
I've used the same 3M 6011 (organic vapor) filter for years, for tasks like cleaning with ammonia where I'm not really worried about hazardous exposure just nuisance [0]. And it's lasted just fine (extremely off-label use, of course). So with something like tear gas where you're not worried about actual toxicity per se, I'd think that subjective experience would be fine for knowing when it needs to be changed. If you want to be paranoid, it seems like you could also carry a backup fresh set still in the sealed foil.
With the prices for respirators going up (/me gestures at federal "government" attacking our own cities), if I wanted to save money I'd get a knock-off full face respirator from Amazon (or Ali if you're comfortable transiting the import blockade with this specific item), and then genuine cartridges (NOT from Amazon obviously, lol).
[0] for most things I do, I use the 2097 filters which are primarily particulate with just a small amount of activated charcoal for "nuisance vapors". This is all generally with half-face 7500 bodies.
I wonder how that performs vs the CP3N.
My own experience is that fit is as/more important than filters, and who knows how well civvies will fit their CBRN gear. It's _oppressively_ uncomfortable!
One of the things this article doesn't cover is how resistant to "non-lethal" ammunition these gas masks are. That's something to keep in mind if you want to take this article seriously. Looking at the Mira Tactical Gas Mask CM-6M referenced in the article though, they do say that their mask does comply with EN 168 impact protection, which includes that kind of ammunition. Here's a Nieman Lab article that is related: https://www.niemanlab.org/2026/01/what-a-safety-expert-think...
The problem I found was that some of them are designed to keep particulates out but aren't as worried about also keeping particulates in as well. This was relevant-circa 2020. No idea how these rank on that metric.
I'd say basically all of them in this target market - a respirator with check valves is much more comfortable to use.
For the beginning of Covid I modded my 7500 (half face) to remove the check valve flaps and seal up what would normally be the exhaust ports, making both inhale and exhale go through the 2297 filters. It was harder to breathe, more humid, and developed liquid water accumulation over longer periods.
I would think that if you did the same thing with a full face respirator, it would immediately fog up. If you look at the flow path on them, it's something like atmosphere -> filter -> top face portion -> mouth nose portion -> atmosphere, presumably to keep the part you need to see out of full of dry air.
Surely that would be a cleanroom-style bunny suit?
Actually, just a normal <$10 N95 [0][1] (without an exhalation valve). But they won't stop chemicals, just particles. My family have found they prevent COVID transmission from masked sick members to unmasked family members, as well as from unmasked sick members to masked family members.
0: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b00038112/
1: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b00037933/
An amazon affiliate link wrapped in the mantle of edgy resistance. Ignoring that, why would anybody take this site serious for gasmask recommendations? Shallow and fast-food level information.
Or, a satire of the state of the US in the format of a affiliate review article.
Are they protesting against amazon?
Sorry, it aligns with my politics so I rate it as one of the best
If you let ideology trump facts, why are you surprised when the "other side" does the same? Those who believe in facts watch both in horror from the sidelines.
He's being sarcastic (hopefully).
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We live in a world increasingly becoming hypercapitalistic in every facet of life with problems and solutions being marketed together, all fed with algorithms.
"Have you got chronic sebhorric dermatitis, click this link to make it go away".
"You may be eligible for compensation if you bought a Volkswagen"
"Fight the corrupt fascist government, buy a gas mask here"
"Fight the corrupt socialist government, buy a year's supply of Iodine tablets"
How long do these last? How many hours/days/.. can you use them for? And how long can you store them safely before they disintegrate or whatever?
There's a particulate filter and an organic vapor cartridge, and you're primarily worried about the organic vapor cartridge which has a peel-off seal when you assemble it.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1948355O/combination-car...
40 hours of use or 30 days, whatever comes first, it says.
It's probably not what I would bet my life on, but I've used a bunch of these up doing wood finishing and cleaning. You swap them when you start to smell anything through the cartridges, because it's not actively handling organic vapors anymore. I think 30-40 hours of real exposure use is realistic.
I typically wipe down & pack masks with organic vapor cartridges into a ziplock bag filled with paper towels when I'm done for the day. This ziplock thing is just what I started doing after leaving it out on the counter and found the cartridges weren't effective the next day. This is entirely unscientific, but I think they last longer stored like this.
For folks who are actually going to go down this rabbit hole, yes the 3M 6800 series and the GVS respirators are great, and work with very similar cartridge-style filters. That said, a mask alone is not sufficient, and I really recommend you get a Tyvek bunny suit also to protect your skin against chemical exposure. Given the current weather, it's relatively easy to cover over the bunny suit with your outerwear like a hoodie so it's not even necessarily visibly super-obvious, and it will do a lot to help protect you. It's not just your eyes, nose, and mouth you want to protect but every area of your skin ideally.
Also tear-gas canisters are very hot when fired, because tear gas is produced and released via a pyrotechnic reaction inside the canister, basically burning a dry chemical to produce the gas. I recommend wearing a heavy (7mil or 9mil) nitrile glove with your bunny suit and over that wearing leather welding gloves or heat-rated mechanics gloves if you expect to encounter tear gas canisters so you can pick them up and throw them back.
Also, be aware that the filter canisters on most masks are only good for about 45 minutes to 2 hours (depending on exposure levels) when used in an environment where you are actively being exposed to the chemicals you want to filter. You need additional replacement filters that are /sealed/ in their packaging to swap out to in the field. Good luck out there.
None of which are practical if you need to wear glasses.
In many cases, especially for the higher end models, you can spend in the neighborhood of $100 to get an Rx face-shield. On the note of matters that didn't seem to come up much in the article, but that I feel like people should know:
The kind of cartridge you need to withstand teargas is not an N95, as the top comment points out it's quite a bit more involved. The downside of that other than cost and duration of the filter is that you'll feel a lot more resistance on inhaling than you're used to. For some people the combination of something on their face and the feeling of restricted breathing is unbearable, and mid-tear gas attack is a terrible time to realize that.
Consider also that this becomes far more important if you're working hard, say running around or fighting. Anyone who has it in their head to give this a try should keep those factors in mind, as well as get a kit to properly fit-test because again... mid-attack is a terrible time to realize that your fit isn't up to snuff. Likewise with training to don and doff.
In a lot of ways the article feels like clickbait that's extremely self-aware, but not really concerned with the practical reality of what they're implying.
Honestly the 3M 60923 cartridges don't restrict breathing at all. They have great airflow. I've used them all day long in chemical plants, no one complains about that.
Seconded. I've used those exact cartridges. Not for as long of shifts as you, but I'd say the face mask fit is much more important for that.
My DIY-perspective tip is that when you're getting to know the respirator, you can take the filter cartridges off and put your hands over the input ports to feel what fully restricted breathing feels like, make it a known sensation in case it ends up happening. Likewise you can cover the output port and breathe out to do a kind of rough fit test.
I save my hotel key cards and keep a few of them in each of the safety cabinets and kits.
You can hold up a key card to cover each bayonet filter and it seals it perfectly for a quick test at any time.
I usually put those in a parts drawer for use when opening electronic devices built with clipped together plastic cases.
Good tip, though! I'll have to try that next time I'm using the bayonets.
Fantastic fit-test tip.
Thirding this. I can wear one all day in hot weather with a half mask on climbing ladders. I did this to paint my house during fire season one year.
There is a glasses kit available for the listed 3M 6800.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/v101296043/
Yes, in addition to inserts which are custom to the mask, there are small frames with a thin rubber band to keep them on you. They were great for roughhousing occasions as well as under mask. The key part is the thinness and impermeability of the band allows for a good seal.
https://eyeglass.com/products/criss-optical-collection-mag-1...
As someone with big bulky eye glass lenses and frames I looked up the solution for the CM-6 derived masks, https://www.rigad.com/avec-spectacle-insert-for-cm-6-masks. Sounds like you'd have to get new lenses just for it and put 'em in, and the field of view is not great, but it is feasible.
Just how big are your glasses? These aren't goggles that try to seal around your eye sockets, they are shields that seal around your face, sitting in front of your face by an inch or two. If you're worried about the glasses temple breaking the seal, it's still going to provide the vast majority of benefit.
Isn’t this the reporter who made the racist tweets?
Next up: tips and tricks on setting up your fortified anti-US-federal-government militia compound.
They're autonomous zones, dad. You don't get it.
Maybe the left is based after all.
Street protests were an effective tool for suffrage, anti-segregation, labor rights, civil rights, anti-colonialism, gay rights to name a few. It is disingenuous to associate this with the Waco-style idiocy.
Yet another interesting article flagged because it touches on American politics.
What's the procedure for flagged articles become unflagged? Maybe do I need more karma or something before I can vouch for them?
https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented
Normally most users can vouch for flagged submissions. The fact that this is non-vouchable is interesting.
Could it be that people who have commented in a flagged post are forbidden from vouching?
That's my suspicion. Likely with an IP association as well for people with alt-accounts.
The link you posted says users can only vouch for dead submissions, though?
[flagged]
seems extreme.
A permanent ban seems strong, but it sure does seem like folks are using flagging as a super downvote in this case
But that is exactly what the flag button is there for?! - but this discussion has been had numerous times, and the two sides will never agree.
Safest to flag (or not) as you see fit, because you are a good person rather than an evil one. Then rely on the admins to rescue needlessly ultraflagged articles as appropriate. They are pretty good at doing the right thing.
You're saying the discussion of which chemical respirators to wear to protests has been had numerous times?
I'd say this is a productive topic of conversation for many HN users. There are not "two sides" on this topic, unless we're talking 3M vs MSA. The people flagging or commenting with opposing political views are disrupting conversation, likely because they they disagree with how the topic has been framed. This is exactly like PHP fans going into a Python thread and telling everyone Python sucks, disrupting the people who just wanted to discuss getting things done within the framework of Python. They might have some valid points, but they're not germane to civil discussion.
No, I was referring to discussion of the semantics of flagging. Apologies; I thought it was phrased clearly enough, but, perhaps not. (Maybe I should have said "that discussion" rather than "this discussion"? This is my native tongue, so you can't trust me to get this stuff perfectly right.)
Ah, I don't know that there was a problem with your phrasing. Rather it's that the meta-discussion of flagging is so inactionable that the possibility didn't even cross my mind. Mea culpa.
[flagged]
I thought ring wingers also like freedom and would fight to protect it.
[flagged]
All gas masks simply buy the wearer time, and not much time at that...
Automotive Painter shops use an actual filtered external fresh-air feed medical-grade pump, as it avoids whatever mystery compounds are in various paints and cleaners.
Don't cheap out on PPE, as 3M does make good quality filters. =3
This article was not about using gas masks for industrial purposes lol
Indeed, but it seemed like the simplest way to explain shorter protection times with higher exposure levels. =3
Why is this low effort article on top here? It's absolutely not a "Best" list and lacks professionalism.
The reality is that tear gas is not an effective riot control tool. It works fine against spontaneous mobs of sports fans after their team loses, but it's not especially effective against prepared insurrectionists.
The last time the US faced this level of organized political resistance against lawful federal authority, the Army and National Guard routinely used fixed bayonets to control segregationist protesters. The same technique would work today, but with modern rifles being significantly shorter and hence being less effective bayonet platforms, a dedicated spear might be the better option.
Such weapons, employed in a close-order formation, would be much less lethal than they might seem at first blush. Historical data from 18th and 19th century conflicts shows that, even in battles where bayonet charges happened, there was still an extremely low rate of actual bayonet casualties. Even trained and disciplined soldiers will break and rout rather than let themselves be stabbed with bayonets (or, presumably, spears).
The most recent organized resistance was not segregation but the 1970s bombings. There were 2000 bombings in less than two years.
Excellent point, and I think those bombings are not as well remembered as they should be. However, none of those bombings happened at the encouragement of and with the tacit cooperation of state government authorities.
>Even trained and disciplined soldiers will break and rout rather than let themselves be stabbed with bayonets (or, presumably, spears).
What if the organizers have drilled it into their heads that they won't use real spears? "WHY DID YOU HAVE REAL BULLETS?!?!?"
Wasn't "the last time" in 2020?
I'd say Jan 6, 2021. But there are so many examples between "bayonets" and now. 2020 Seattle CHOP, 2014/2016 Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, 2011 Occupy Wall Street, 1999 Battle in Seattle, 1992 Ruby Ridge Standoff, 1969 People's Park, the entire civil rights movement era, 1946 Battle of Athens, 1921 Battle of Blair Mountain.
I intentionally alternated between left wing / right wing events. These things aren't limited to one side, and they're somewhat frequent, if a bit cyclical.
Poe’s Law strikes again. Surely you’re not for real?
Maybe we should talk about the first time the US had this level of political resistance against "lawful authority". That seems like a better analogy for what's going on here.
Also I feel compelled to point out that "lawful authority" does not imply "authority acting lawfully". The difference is painfully demonstrated by the existence of a thread discussing the use of respirators in response to government jackboots suppressing lawful first amendment activity. The obvious alternative is to let the protests happen, per our Constitution.
> government jackboots suppressing lawful first amendment activity
If that was actually happening, I would be opposed to it. The only people suppressing lawful first amendment activity were Don Lemon and his friends invading a church, interrupting services, and blocking the exits as they screamed abuse at the parishioners.
We're in a topic about tear gas being used to attack protestors. You yourself opened up this thread by saying that tear gas isn't the right answer, so it doesn't seem like you're denying this activity is happening. The only remaining angle I see is that you're claiming that the bulk of protestors who have been attacked were doing something illegal to prompt it? That is a tall claim, but I am of course open to evidence.
Because to me, it looks like you're merely doing whataboutism to the latest spectacle your media bubble is showing you. That you add "If that was actually happening, I would be opposed to it" is most concerning as it indicates how far your cognitive dissonance is able to be stretched.
> We're in a topic about tear gas being used to attack protestors.
You say protestors, I say rioters and organized physical resistance to legitimate law enforcement. If you think that’s a “tall claim” you’re the one in a media bubble.
So to be clear, you are claiming that every person at every protest where ICE has attacked the crowd was looking to actively physically impede law enforcement?
That’s never been the standard for riot control, but frankly I would be skeptical of anyone who was in the middle of a rioting mob who claimed they were minding their own business and playing candy crush on their phone.
The infighting is so tedious. We really need to peacefully explore the "national divorce" idea again. In the 1860s the concept was too intermingled with the evil of slavery to be considered separately.
But realistically, instead of both sides hating each other to the point of perpetual violence, why not just have 2 or 3 countries in which we can all be happy? Trade and travel agreements are easy to establish by treaty. It doesn't have to be this way.
> We really need to peacefully explore the "national divorce" idea again. In the 1860s the concept was too intermingled with the evil of slavery to be considered separately.
The idea is still just as intermingled with fundamental human rights, plus the sides are more deeply geographically intermingled than in the 1860s, largely because the victors decided not to really root out the evil they had defeated an instead allowed it to metastasize. There may be no peaceful resolution; there is certainly no possibility of a peaceful divorce.
Because this time, the Mason-Dixon line runs through our back yards and down our neighborhood streets.
The time to split the country was when the Confederacy seceded. We should have just let them go, but that would have meant ignoring a human-rights atrocity, and in any case it would have resulted in a shared border with a belligerent enemy nation and ultimately with a failed state. It's definitely too late now.
Slavery still is—and will always be—the issue. You think the Black populations of Alabama, Louisiana, and Florida want to be ruled by uncontested white supremacists?
It is the historical task of our species to abolish slavery. In every generation we've got to reeducate ourselves about its evils.
Posting this article in this format reminds me of truly good story writing. Would've been a top 3 pieces of writing all time for me without all of the anecdotes in between. All of the information you need to know is already written without all of the in-your-faceness of the bridge paragraphs between reviews.
Still an amazing story, props to the Verge. But could've been an all time great.
Bewildering comment. Without the anecdotes, this is just a product review. /s?
You misunderstand.
> 3M does not provide product information on which filters are best for government repression
Great writing.
>When I eventually sat down to write my article about the Portland protests, I had a strange kind of epiphany, if it can even be called that. Out in the real world, when drowning in tear gas and adrenaline
Bad writing.
This is a genius product review right now for all the reasons everyone else thinks it is. I didn't need to read a single one of the authors personal experiences to understand the underlying message, or read ~100 words about their internal struggles to classify Portland as a riot versus a protest. The lack of brevity and conciseness seriously undercuts the absolute geniusness of maliciously compliant product reviews about gas masks in our current political climate.
My comment is about the art of subtlety. Again, this is an amazing article, but it's literally just been flagged by HN because it waxes poetic about politics instead of allowing all of that to be there without saying it. We can all read between the lines.
That makes sense to me. I really enjoyed the personal anecdotes and I thought they made the article a lot stronger for me, but a dry gas mask review would have also been an excellent, albeit different, article.
No, it's actually you who is the one who is misunderstanding.
The product review, while it does stand on its own, is not the main purpose.
The point is to render absurd the incredulous comments from Pam Bondi, "How did these people go out and get gas masks?" Bondi did not ask this question to receive an answer, "oh, they go to Home Depot and get model X-54-Whatever." The point of her question was to cast aspersion on the protestors, to attempt to delegitimize their grievances by painting them as paid, professional agitators. It's the sort of "I'm just sayin'" bullshit rhetoric we've all had to deal with from racist uncles at Thanksgiving for the last 25 years.
Jeong's article works by failing to engage Bondi's comments on Bondi's grounds. Jeong's use of product review as a structure for her article is a conceit that treats Bondi's comments as a legitimate request for product reviews, side-stepping the concept that only paid professionals could ever know anything about gas masks, because information on the Internet is and wants to be free.
That is entirely orthogonal to my point.