UK and immigration is actually very bipolar affair. They don't want to live without migrant labor but they dislike migrants so much. And they persistently do nothing about migration or are actually encouraging it.
While they were in EU, Home Office always had a tool to deport EU migrants - if person from EU is not self reliant after 3 months since coming to the country, EU law allows the host country to kick such person out. Home office never did anything and did not wanted you to register yourself.
And then they committed Brexit instead of applying 3 months rule.
After Brexit UK started rapidly importing migrants from South East Asia. And I expect that Home office will do nothing about these migrants as well.
This British ICE is pointless because Home office already have all the tools necessary, they just don't want to use them, because UK economy is reliant on cheap migrant labor.
AFAICT, the problem in the UK is with too many people being allowed to stay for spurious reasons, not with people not being removed when they (legally) should be ?
Honestly neither of these things is a remotely important problem in the UK. The whole conversation about immigration in the UK is just a dogwhistle to try to attract racist voters now that since brexit they can’t use conversation about the EU for that.
As everywhere, immigration is not an issue for people who do not have to live in social/cheap rented housing in ghettos and have jobs that require a good education.
For the other half of societies, the half you did not meet in college, it is a problem and they are voting for racist parties because the other parties have not reduced immigration it and they think the racist parties will.
Immigration is actually one of the main issues in the UK and it's not about racism.
Productivity, population growth (and impact on housing and services), population aging (and impact on social care and NHS), societal and cultural changes and conflicts, national identity, etc are all linked to immigration.
The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite. This is what pushes voters to Reform UK and away from the Tories, among other things. Labour is now doing the same (relatively tough talk but no actual effective action).
So you want me to convince myself that immigration is an issue?
You blame immigrants moving into the country causing what problem exactly? Too many NHS workers from foreign countries now, or too much competition for you when applying for roles?
This isn’t a serious contribution to the discussion. The overall level of NHS services would clearly be far lower (non-existent in some cases) without the contribution of immigrants.
Do you believe that foreigners should be allowed to practice as nurses with fake qualifications? Because the NHS does. As they were ACTIVELY working while the NHS knew about the forgery.
Do you have evidence that there is a widespread, institutional fake qualifications problem with native NHS nurses? Please provide evidence. This is what would show that foreign workers in the NHS do not drag down standards on average.
We’re not going to figure out a practical way to improve the NHS with this level of debate. We get that you don’t like foreign nurses, but I’m not going to respond to your rhetorical questions.
You put words in my mouth, that's a dishonest way of arguing :)
I never once said all foreign nurses or bad, nor did I say I dislike them. I pointed out widespread, institutional level fraud that puts patients at risk, exclusively by foreign NHS staff.
It's worrying you can't respond to the argument without strawmans. Is patient safety a concern for you or does politics trump it?
You know that the NHS crucially depends on immigrant doctors and nurses and that their contribution is overwhelmingly positive. Your original comment was a completely transparent attempt to derail the discussion with a single cherry picked example.
> The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite.
There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign.
Or, maybe massively restricting immigration is actually a great idea and the establishment is conspiring to prevent it. Just like with Brexit, right?
High immigration is the cheaper short term solution at the "cost" of other, deeper issues. Restricting immigration is only be "bad" for the economy because systemic issues are not tackled.
The NHS relies on foreign workers. Why? Because salaries and conditions are shit so locals either do not train for those jobs or give up and moce to Australia at some point. It is cheaper to keep it that way.
12% of 25-34 years old are "economically inactive", which means deep systemic issues.
Generally immigration also keep salaries lower and also productivity lower (and that's why the left is actually historically not too keen).
This is difficult to debate seriously because there is always someone to cry "racist".
If you actually put the fixes for those “systemic issues” on the table, it’s obvious that no-one is going to vote for them, so they’re total non-starters. E.g. it would be great to pay nurses more, but no-one is going to vote for the tax hike required to fund it.
If any of this is difficult to debate seriously, that’s because opponents of current immigration policy consistently appeal to the lowest common denominator (people’s prejudices) rather than framing a proper argument. Even in this thread, you can see someone trying (absurdly) to redirect the discussion towards some Nigerian nurses with fake qualifications.
There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign.
You missed one important point: A rational party, or at least one with a rational leader. If you're dumb enough you will go through with it no matter how much it hurts your economy, your health system, and your country as a whole. I'm not in the UK but maybe someone from there could provide an estimate, on a scale of 0 to Trump, where does Farage rate?
But on the other hand, claiming that, as mentioned, any alternatives to high immigration is bad for the country has to be BS because it does not pass the "smell test". I never understood this stance that countries must have high immigration, that high immigration is good (TM) and that anything else is bigoted and racist. Best theory is that anti-racism has mutated into a monster mixed with business interests only interested in an ever growing labour and consumers pool.
I hate that ICE doesn't just mean internal combustion engine - thought this would be about a "national" british engine, but instead it's just people being assholes.
MAGA cheerleader openly admires Trump's methods and personality and seeks their endorsement, and openly plans on making structures similar to abused in the US for human rights abuses already.
They're openly preparing to do exactly that.
And some of the tools (that wouldn't be necessary if not for Fartrage campaigning as well) fit very well in their plans.
What part exactly you consider clickbait and not foreboding?
UK and immigration is actually very bipolar affair. They don't want to live without migrant labor but they dislike migrants so much. And they persistently do nothing about migration or are actually encouraging it.
While they were in EU, Home Office always had a tool to deport EU migrants - if person from EU is not self reliant after 3 months since coming to the country, EU law allows the host country to kick such person out. Home office never did anything and did not wanted you to register yourself.
And then they committed Brexit instead of applying 3 months rule.
After Brexit UK started rapidly importing migrants from South East Asia. And I expect that Home office will do nothing about these migrants as well.
This British ICE is pointless because Home office already have all the tools necessary, they just don't want to use them, because UK economy is reliant on cheap migrant labor.
USA also had all the tools necessary before ICE
AFAICT, the problem in the UK is with too many people being allowed to stay for spurious reasons, not with people not being removed when they (legally) should be ?
Honestly neither of these things is a remotely important problem in the UK. The whole conversation about immigration in the UK is just a dogwhistle to try to attract racist voters now that since brexit they can’t use conversation about the EU for that.
This is my opinion as well, and it’s not working (thankfully). Let them cry wolf.
[dead]
https://yougov.com/en-gb/trackers/do-brits-think-that-immigr...
"No, no, it's not an issue for ME" cry the demented Guardian readers.
As everywhere, immigration is not an issue for people who do not have to live in social/cheap rented housing in ghettos and have jobs that require a good education.
For the other half of societies, the half you did not meet in college, it is a problem and they are voting for racist parties because the other parties have not reduced immigration it and they think the racist parties will.
[dead]
Immigration is actually one of the main issues in the UK and it's not about racism.
Productivity, population growth (and impact on housing and services), population aging (and impact on social care and NHS), societal and cultural changes and conflicts, national identity, etc are all linked to immigration.
The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite. This is what pushes voters to Reform UK and away from the Tories, among other things. Labour is now doing the same (relatively tough talk but no actual effective action).
Immigration is not a main issue in the UK. Maybe it is for you?
It’s a topic, but not an “issue”.
[flagged]
So you want me to convince myself that immigration is an issue?
You blame immigrants moving into the country causing what problem exactly? Too many NHS workers from foreign countries now, or too much competition for you when applying for roles?
[flagged]
!!!!! Wow. Foreigners == Bad.
I’m assuming you couldn’t attend the exhibit?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/25/exhibition-c...
This isn’t a serious contribution to the discussion. The overall level of NHS services would clearly be far lower (non-existent in some cases) without the contribution of immigrants.
Do you believe that foreigners should be allowed to practice as nurses with fake qualifications? Because the NHS does. As they were ACTIVELY working while the NHS knew about the forgery.
Do you have evidence that there is a widespread, institutional fake qualifications problem with native NHS nurses? Please provide evidence. This is what would show that foreign workers in the NHS do not drag down standards on average.
We’re not going to figure out a practical way to improve the NHS with this level of debate. We get that you don’t like foreign nurses, but I’m not going to respond to your rhetorical questions.
You put words in my mouth, that's a dishonest way of arguing :)
I never once said all foreign nurses or bad, nor did I say I dislike them. I pointed out widespread, institutional level fraud that puts patients at risk, exclusively by foreign NHS staff.
It's worrying you can't respond to the argument without strawmans. Is patient safety a concern for you or does politics trump it?
You know that the NHS crucially depends on immigrant doctors and nurses and that their contribution is overwhelmingly positive. Your original comment was a completely transparent attempt to derail the discussion with a single cherry picked example.
> The issue is compounded by the fact that successive governments say they want to be tough on immigration, but actually do the opposite.
There’s a simple explanation for this. Being “tough” on immigration would be bad for the economy, bad for the NHS, and bad for the country as a whole. So once a party is actually in government, they don’t want to do it, whatever they said in order to gain votes during the election campaign.
Or, maybe massively restricting immigration is actually a great idea and the establishment is conspiring to prevent it. Just like with Brexit, right?
High immigration is the cheaper short term solution at the "cost" of other, deeper issues. Restricting immigration is only be "bad" for the economy because systemic issues are not tackled.
The NHS relies on foreign workers. Why? Because salaries and conditions are shit so locals either do not train for those jobs or give up and moce to Australia at some point. It is cheaper to keep it that way.
12% of 25-34 years old are "economically inactive", which means deep systemic issues.
Generally immigration also keep salaries lower and also productivity lower (and that's why the left is actually historically not too keen).
This is difficult to debate seriously because there is always someone to cry "racist".
If you actually put the fixes for those “systemic issues” on the table, it’s obvious that no-one is going to vote for them, so they’re total non-starters. E.g. it would be great to pay nurses more, but no-one is going to vote for the tax hike required to fund it.
If any of this is difficult to debate seriously, that’s because opponents of current immigration policy consistently appeal to the lowest common denominator (people’s prejudices) rather than framing a proper argument. Even in this thread, you can see someone trying (absurdly) to redirect the discussion towards some Nigerian nurses with fake qualifications.
Farage is a populist, no doubt about that.
But on the other hand, claiming that, as mentioned, any alternatives to high immigration is bad for the country has to be BS because it does not pass the "smell test". I never understood this stance that countries must have high immigration, that high immigration is good (TM) and that anything else is bigoted and racist. Best theory is that anti-racism has mutated into a monster mixed with business interests only interested in an ever growing labour and consumers pool.
I hate that ICE doesn't just mean internal combustion engine - thought this would be about a "national" british engine, but instead it's just people being assholes.
If that was the first connotation that people had with the acronym ICE, the world would be a nicer place.
Further evidence that social democrats are just moderate fascists.
Labour used to be social democracy (to an extent).
Since Starmer hijacked the party and started expelling everyone left of himself it's now somewhere between Tories and Deform on most issues.
Fear mongering clickbait article and headline.
Must be fun to just speculate on pessimism instead of optimism. Gotta get subscribers somehow I suppose, prey on the unhappy and scared.
What do you mean?
MAGA cheerleader openly admires Trump's methods and personality and seeks their endorsement, and openly plans on making structures similar to abused in the US for human rights abuses already.
They're openly preparing to do exactly that.
And some of the tools (that wouldn't be necessary if not for Fartrage campaigning as well) fit very well in their plans.
What part exactly you consider clickbait and not foreboding?