"we don’t need to know a lot about
you to deliver a great experience on Apple Maps."
-> so you still need to know a little about me ?
"Even if you choose to sign in, Maps keeps your data in sync across all your devices using end-to-end encryption — so where you go isn’t associated with your Apple Account at all."
-> looks like magic, data is synced accross all your devices but without using your apple account ...
For shop owners buying ads, they'll still need to provide statistics of view, clicks and conversions and that needs tracking. So that's not different from google. Apple claims to be the champion of privacy, that's just hypocritical. Just check the apple Advertising & Privacy page.
While letting Facebook, TikTok and others secretly track you for years, across devices AND DEVICE REINSTALLS, through Apple's iCloud Keychain API, to store data that users cannot see or delete on iOS, except through the macOS Keychain app, and even then it's dubious if that's all that's actually stored.
I'm not sure I follow, presumably if these are using the Keychain API they're doing so via the app, to which you must be logged in, so they are already tracking you and the keychain thing achieves... nothing?
The keychain data of an app on iOS is NEVER removed from your device, unless you completely wipe the device. This has been the behavior since the beginning.
Even if you delete and reinstall the app, it remembers your logins and who you are. Even after you wipe the iPhone/iPad and setup with the same Apple ID/iCloud account.
Discord automatically logged me in ON A NEW IPAD, because I signed into the same Apple ID/iCloud account.
and I assume all the other apps from a company can share that info, like Facebook ↔ WhatsApp
Funnily enough, Apple allowed users to delete that data when deleting an app, during an iOS beta, but removed that feature before release, heavily in favor of the spyware and against users.
I've been ranting about this since 5 years, and every time it mostly just gets ignored. You can Google or ask ChatGPT about the iCloud Keychain API.
And to see for yourself, open the Keychain Access app on your Mac, and search for "Facebook", "TikTok" etc (that data is accessible by those apps on all your other Apple devices too)
> For shop owners buying ads, they'll still need to provide statistics of view, clicks and conversions and that needs tracking. So that's not different from google.
The difference is in how the data is handled. One is using it as an asset to update the FBI-like file they have on you. The other is treating it like a hot potato.
I was really impressed with Apple offering reasonably priced hardware of late, like the Neo. Now I see why. They're transitionaing away from the making money off of hardware phase, and into the making money off of you phase.
I think for a long time Apple could grow by introducing new hardware categories, growing the average spend on hardware (by e.g. moving from upgradable to soldered memory/disks), and additional services.
It has been a while since they introduced category-changing new devices and people hold on to their iPhones/iPads/Apple Watches longer due to smaller changes between generations and long software support periods.
So, the primary way that they see how they could grow is by introducing more ads and more subscriptions. Slowly they make Apple's platforms more gross:
- When searching in the app store, nearly half the page is ads now.
- Pushing F1 movie advertisements through Apple Wallet.
- Ads in maps.
- Pushing subscriptions by putting ads for Apple Creator Studio in iWork apps (Pages, Keynote, Numbers).
- Pushing subscriptions by putting Apple Fitness+ ads in the system setting on iOS (!).
This might work for a while, but eventually, Apple will lose a key differentiator.
Really sad to see. The last thing I want when I'm trying to figure out how to get somewhere is a bunch of sponsored pins and results, slowing me down and giving my brain more garbage to process.
That screenshot in the link is still vastly better than Google Maps: a generic search for "restaurants" may feature a clearly marked sponsored restaurant. There's a long ways to go until they get to Google or Yelp's level. But we all know they'll get there soon enough, copying Google's "innovations" as they go.
heh. Could the apple maps team ever be paid a higher compliment? They really, truly, made it. I remember 15 years ago when apple maps was an absolute laughingstock that couldn't hold a candle to the big guys. But look at them now.
They made it genuinely good. It'd been my only map app for years until I downloaded google maps for a road trip and was perplexed by all the squares I didn't ask for telling me about Arby's and Toyota dealers. "People tolerate this?!"
Good for navigation, terrible for up to date business information (opening hours) and reviews.
Google maps’ reviews aren’t great - everything is a 4.3 because they incentivised users to review business interactions they didn’t care about by paying them pennies in Google pay credit - but it will at least tell me reliably if a business is closed today or has shut down.
Google maps' business/shop/restaurent information is indeed a lot better than Apple maps / Yelp in the UK, however I've found here it relies on business owners to update that info, and so often has "orphaned" businesses / restaurants still in it that have closed months (sometimes more than 6) ago.
Sometimes there's a recent review saying that, but other times there's no indication at all.
The network effect of Google Maps is huge. If a restaurant menu isn't officially online, someone will have posted a picture of the menu and half the dishes on it.
The quality of Apple maps is highly dependent on where you live. Every time I check their release notes, I see “we’ve added a custom 3d model for this one landmark in a random US city”, which has zero impact on me or 99.99% of their users. Meanwhile, in my home city it took more than 3 months for a newly opened gym to appear of Apple maps, way way slower than on Google or OSM maps.
Of the big tech companies, Apple is definitely the one that has embraced America First the most. If you live outside the US, you get features later (if at all) and have to pay more for that privilege.
> To connect you with relevant businesses and services, we never use information like your precise location or history of interactions with Maps. Instead we focus on contextual information such as search terms, a device’s approximate location, or the area of the map on screen.
I’m not sure I understand the distinction between “precise location” and “a device’s approximate location” here. If the latter is still location data from the device, how meaningful is the privacy difference?
I don’t support this endeavour but “you are at 123 Fake Street at 9:47am on Thurs May 7” vs “you are in the area of Fake Street/Sham Town on a Weekday Morning”.
main iphone - mostly revolves around phone and messages. lockdown mode.
no bluetooth, no wifi, no location services, privacy stuff all restricted.
I also do some web browsing. I run adblock which lets you filter lots of stuff. apple id signed out.
and my second iphone - offline iphone.
I install it using ethernet with outside connection (usb->ethernet dongles work for iphone)
I delete MANY apps, like phone, messages, tips, stock, health, news, tv, all happily.
I install some 3rd-party apps.
I sign into the app store only with apple id.
I install adblock and enable it.
I install audible and kindle, add books/audiobooks
(adblock prevents some ad connections like kochava.com)
translation (offline). siri (offline). maps (offline).
All of these have offline data that I download.
Then I sign out of icloud (the app store conveniently kind-of-signs-you in)
-> and I disconnect the phone for the last time.
then I turn on:
- bluetooth on.
- location services on.
- camera with location services.
- siri
I don't use wifi, just the ethernet to my (local only) network. I use some apps that talk to my local network - omnifocus, nextcloud.
and I have an offline phone that doesn't phone home.
the maps problem is: apple offline maps last 30 days then disappear. There are lots of complaints online about this. "I was in timbuktu with no internet and couldn't navigate back to the village because the maps expired".
If I need them have I wipe the phone and start over. Jerks.
also audible downloads auto-remove when you get to the end. hard to find settings: Downloads -> settings -> auto remove books: off
It used to be that they included a bunch of software to make their hardware more useful. But I guess they couldn't resist squeezing out a bit more revenue through enshittification. The profit motive is ultimately too strong. Ads on the lock screen and in the dock next?
Arguably already happened, via notifications. They've long allowed third-party apps to send notifications that are actually ads, and a few first-party apps (most notably wallet with the F1 movie ads last year) have started doing this too. Those made it to the lock screen, and if you happened to dock any of those apps, the obnoxious red notification dot would induce you to click on it.
Any app that did that to me lost its notification privileges permanently and got uninstalled if it wasn't a built-in app, but I suppose Apple could start directly injecting unavoidable ads too.
Squeezing the extra 2% of revenue through making it shit has “no downsides”
Voting with wallet doesn’t work, the power imbalance ya too large. This isn’t boycotting your local deli because they get rid of your favourite sandwich.
Eventually china’s cultural takeover will win out and we can only hope it isn’t built on the parasitical advertising industry.
Oh god finally, I was so lost in my life unable to find the nearest place with coffee and bubble tea, also my car unexpectedly runs out of fuel every time hopefully they will resolve this.
So now when I search “Ramen” I can be directed to the business who has the social media team and marketing budget instead of just surfacing really good ramen as the top result.
Steve Jobs would be sad to see the soul of Apple left with him to the grave. To all the people who argue Apple is a better company since, I’d argue the intent of Apple was never to insert itself into every economic, opportunistic business of the world. A reminder that it’s respectable to have a focused business and not feel like you need to do it all. The world would be a better place.
I used to quite like Apple Maps, but then I tried to switch to it for navigation in CarPlay and discovered why so many people hate it. Me: "Hey Siri, navigate to {exactly the same hospital I went to yesterday}", Siri: "I found a McDonalds 309 miles away, it has a trip advisor rating of 2 stars, want that one?".
I've never sworn at Siri so much as I do in my car.
From my experience Google Maps is the superior product. The only reason I kept using Apple Maps was because I wasn’t molested with ads.
Now that this will obviously change, why should I keep using Apple Maps?
At least they should have kept it ad-free for people already paying a premium for their Apple One Premium subscription.
I have less and less incentives to stay in the Apple ecosystem, this is just another nail in the coffin.
Depends what you're looking for. If I'm looking for businesses or streetview or 3D I'll use Google Maps. If I want to explore I'll use openstreetmap. Sometimes I'll use public rights of way mapping or parking zone boundaries on local council websites, or hiking-specific mapping apps that overlay routes. Having one mapping app that does it all would be nice, but each serves their purpose
From Apple's website:
"we don’t need to know a lot about you to deliver a great experience on Apple Maps." -> so you still need to know a little about me ?
"Even if you choose to sign in, Maps keeps your data in sync across all your devices using end-to-end encryption — so where you go isn’t associated with your Apple Account at all." -> looks like magic, data is synced accross all your devices but without using your apple account ...
For shop owners buying ads, they'll still need to provide statistics of view, clicks and conversions and that needs tracking. So that's not different from google. Apple claims to be the champion of privacy, that's just hypocritical. Just check the apple Advertising & Privacy page.
> Apple claims to be the champion of privacy
While letting Facebook, TikTok and others secretly track you for years, across devices AND DEVICE REINSTALLS, through Apple's iCloud Keychain API, to store data that users cannot see or delete on iOS, except through the macOS Keychain app, and even then it's dubious if that's all that's actually stored.
I'm not sure I follow, presumably if these are using the Keychain API they're doing so via the app, to which you must be logged in, so they are already tracking you and the keychain thing achieves... nothing?
There is an interesting prior discussion here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39635616
Started by me! No one else seems to know/care over the many years I've been pissed about this :')
Keep up the good fight!
My personal pet peeve is that a lot of people seem to believe that disabling Allow Apps to Request to Track disables in-app trackers.
Carefully formulated by Apple to give completely the wrong impression (only blocks identifiers like IDFA.)
The keychain data of an app on iOS is NEVER removed from your device, unless you completely wipe the device. This has been the behavior since the beginning.
> unless you completely wipe the device.
then it comes back after you sign into the same Apple ID on that device or even a NEW device!
and of course the crap remains on your other devices.
Funnily enough Apple allowed users to delete that shit for a while, during a certain iOS beta, but then backtracked before release.
Even if you delete and reinstall the app, it remembers your logins and who you are. Even after you wipe the iPhone/iPad and setup with the same Apple ID/iCloud account.
Discord automatically logged me in ON A NEW IPAD, because I signed into the same Apple ID/iCloud account.
and I assume all the other apps from a company can share that info, like Facebook ↔ WhatsApp
Funnily enough, Apple allowed users to delete that data when deleting an app, during an iOS beta, but removed that feature before release, heavily in favor of the spyware and against users.
Can you link to a good article or post about this?
Thanks!
I've been ranting about this since 5 years, and every time it mostly just gets ignored. You can Google or ask ChatGPT about the iCloud Keychain API.
And to see for yourself, open the Keychain Access app on your Mac, and search for "Facebook", "TikTok" etc (that data is accessible by those apps on all your other Apple devices too)
> For shop owners buying ads, they'll still need to provide statistics of view, clicks and conversions and that needs tracking. So that's not different from google.
The difference is in how the data is handled. One is using it as an asset to update the FBI-like file they have on you. The other is treating it like a hot potato.
Are you suggesting apple is handing out user days to advertisors? That sounds strictly worse than the other option
I was really impressed with Apple offering reasonably priced hardware of late, like the Neo. Now I see why. They're transitionaing away from the making money off of hardware phase, and into the making money off of you phase.
Every company realising it is more profitable to milk their customers every day instead of just once.
I think for a long time Apple could grow by introducing new hardware categories, growing the average spend on hardware (by e.g. moving from upgradable to soldered memory/disks), and additional services.
It has been a while since they introduced category-changing new devices and people hold on to their iPhones/iPads/Apple Watches longer due to smaller changes between generations and long software support periods.
So, the primary way that they see how they could grow is by introducing more ads and more subscriptions. Slowly they make Apple's platforms more gross:
- When searching in the app store, nearly half the page is ads now.
- Pushing F1 movie advertisements through Apple Wallet.
- Ads in maps.
- Pushing subscriptions by putting ads for Apple Creator Studio in iWork apps (Pages, Keynote, Numbers).
- Pushing subscriptions by putting Apple Fitness+ ads in the system setting on iOS (!).
This might work for a while, but eventually, Apple will lose a key differentiator.
> They're transitioning away from the making money off of hardware phase, and into the making money off of you phase.
As a result, I am transitioning away from being one of their customers.
To who?
GrapheneOS works great and does not want to push ads, subscriptions, and whatnot. Now Pixel-only, next year also certain Motorola models.
And just like that, the reason to use Apple Maps is gone.
Really sad to see. The last thing I want when I'm trying to figure out how to get somewhere is a bunch of sponsored pins and results, slowing me down and giving my brain more garbage to process.
That screenshot in the link is still vastly better than Google Maps: a generic search for "restaurants" may feature a clearly marked sponsored restaurant. There's a long ways to go until they get to Google or Yelp's level. But we all know they'll get there soon enough, copying Google's "innovations" as they go.
[dead]
heh. Could the apple maps team ever be paid a higher compliment? They really, truly, made it. I remember 15 years ago when apple maps was an absolute laughingstock that couldn't hold a candle to the big guys. But look at them now.
They made it genuinely good. It'd been my only map app for years until I downloaded google maps for a road trip and was perplexed by all the squares I didn't ask for telling me about Arby's and Toyota dealers. "People tolerate this?!"
Long enough to be the villain.
Good for navigation, terrible for up to date business information (opening hours) and reviews.
Google maps’ reviews aren’t great - everything is a 4.3 because they incentivised users to review business interactions they didn’t care about by paying them pennies in Google pay credit - but it will at least tell me reliably if a business is closed today or has shut down.
Google maps' business/shop/restaurent information is indeed a lot better than Apple maps / Yelp in the UK, however I've found here it relies on business owners to update that info, and so often has "orphaned" businesses / restaurants still in it that have closed months (sometimes more than 6) ago.
Sometimes there's a recent review saying that, but other times there's no indication at all.
The network effect of Google Maps is huge. If a restaurant menu isn't officially online, someone will have posted a picture of the menu and half the dishes on it.
Good for navigation? I use as default but never if I’m in a hurry.
Agree ++
The quality of Apple maps is highly dependent on where you live. Every time I check their release notes, I see “we’ve added a custom 3d model for this one landmark in a random US city”, which has zero impact on me or 99.99% of their users. Meanwhile, in my home city it took more than 3 months for a newly opened gym to appear of Apple maps, way way slower than on Google or OSM maps.
Of the big tech companies, Apple is definitely the one that has embraced America First the most. If you live outside the US, you get features later (if at all) and have to pay more for that privilege.
Google Pixel likes to have a word.
(Its redeeming feature is that you can install other OSes though.)
> To connect you with relevant businesses and services, we never use information like your precise location or history of interactions with Maps. Instead we focus on contextual information such as search terms, a device’s approximate location, or the area of the map on screen.
I’m not sure I understand the distinction between “precise location” and “a device’s approximate location” here. If the latter is still location data from the device, how meaningful is the privacy difference?
I don’t support this endeavour but “you are at 123 Fake Street at 9:47am on Thurs May 7” vs “you are in the area of Fake Street/Sham Town on a Weekday Morning”.
WTF. Enshittification expands apace.
I don't like my hardware and OS provider turning me into a product to be sold
Hope they don't ruin the experience and make it delightful for at least some users.
Long dreamed of using map as a treasure/deal hunt, like the Japanese, especially in this economy: https://tinyurl.com/2dlx29eo
You know what I do?
I have a second iphone.
main iphone - mostly revolves around phone and messages. lockdown mode. no bluetooth, no wifi, no location services, privacy stuff all restricted. I also do some web browsing. I run adblock which lets you filter lots of stuff. apple id signed out.
and my second iphone - offline iphone.
I install it using ethernet with outside connection (usb->ethernet dongles work for iphone)
I delete MANY apps, like phone, messages, tips, stock, health, news, tv, all happily.
I install some 3rd-party apps.
I sign into the app store only with apple id.
I install adblock and enable it.
I install audible and kindle, add books/audiobooks (adblock prevents some ad connections like kochava.com)
translation (offline). siri (offline). maps (offline).
All of these have offline data that I download.
Then I sign out of icloud (the app store conveniently kind-of-signs-you in)
-> and I disconnect the phone for the last time.
then I turn on:
- bluetooth on.
- location services on.
- camera with location services.
- siri
I don't use wifi, just the ethernet to my (local only) network. I use some apps that talk to my local network - omnifocus, nextcloud.
and I have an offline phone that doesn't phone home.
the maps problem is: apple offline maps last 30 days then disappear. There are lots of complaints online about this. "I was in timbuktu with no internet and couldn't navigate back to the village because the maps expired".
If I need them have I wipe the phone and start over. Jerks.
also audible downloads auto-remove when you get to the end. hard to find settings: Downloads -> settings -> auto remove books: off
Maybe excessive, but it makes me happy.
like are you okay?
Why?
Apple "values your privacy" but has a multi-thousand-page privacy policy.
But an offline phone? no tracking, but you can still turn on location services, siri, maps (with directions).
it also doesn't need wifi or cellular, so works in the woods etc.
kindle books/audible audiobooks track each thing you do, but can't offline.
so again: makes me happy. You should be able to be left alone.
The best part of computers is the convenience, I think.
It used to be that they included a bunch of software to make their hardware more useful. But I guess they couldn't resist squeezing out a bit more revenue through enshittification. The profit motive is ultimately too strong. Ads on the lock screen and in the dock next?
> Ads on the lock screen and in the dock next?
Arguably already happened, via notifications. They've long allowed third-party apps to send notifications that are actually ads, and a few first-party apps (most notably wallet with the F1 movie ads last year) have started doing this too. Those made it to the lock screen, and if you happened to dock any of those apps, the obnoxious red notification dot would induce you to click on it.
Any app that did that to me lost its notification privileges permanently and got uninstalled if it wasn't a built-in app, but I suppose Apple could start directly injecting unavoidable ads too.
Squeezing the extra 2% of revenue through making it shit has “no downsides”
Voting with wallet doesn’t work, the power imbalance ya too large. This isn’t boycotting your local deli because they get rid of your favourite sandwich.
Eventually china’s cultural takeover will win out and we can only hope it isn’t built on the parasitical advertising industry.
Oh god finally, I was so lost in my life unable to find the nearest place with coffee and bubble tea, also my car unexpectedly runs out of fuel every time hopefully they will resolve this.
So now when I search “Ramen” I can be directed to the business who has the social media team and marketing budget instead of just surfacing really good ramen as the top result.
Steve Jobs would be sad to see the soul of Apple left with him to the grave. To all the people who argue Apple is a better company since, I’d argue the intent of Apple was never to insert itself into every economic, opportunistic business of the world. A reminder that it’s respectable to have a focused business and not feel like you need to do it all. The world would be a better place.
Sad to watch Apple enshitify themselves now. Nipping it in the bud and switching away from iOS to GrapheneOS right now.
I used to quite like Apple Maps, but then I tried to switch to it for navigation in CarPlay and discovered why so many people hate it. Me: "Hey Siri, navigate to {exactly the same hospital I went to yesterday}", Siri: "I found a McDonalds 309 miles away, it has a trip advisor rating of 2 stars, want that one?".
I've never sworn at Siri so much as I do in my car.
And everything turns to shit. Even when you pay premium for it.
From my experience Google Maps is the superior product. The only reason I kept using Apple Maps was because I wasn’t molested with ads.
Now that this will obviously change, why should I keep using Apple Maps? At least they should have kept it ad-free for people already paying a premium for their Apple One Premium subscription.
I have less and less incentives to stay in the Apple ecosystem, this is just another nail in the coffin.
Depends what you're looking for. If I'm looking for businesses or streetview or 3D I'll use Google Maps. If I want to explore I'll use openstreetmap. Sometimes I'll use public rights of way mapping or parking zone boundaries on local council websites, or hiking-specific mapping apps that overlay routes. Having one mapping app that does it all would be nice, but each serves their purpose
what a joke apple has become. all to make a few people's careers.
How long until Macs come with preinstalled bloatware?
Have you recently launched any iWork apps?
https://mastodon.social/@stroughtonsmith/115973178893109987
Any indications the new CEO will be less inclined to embrace enshittification like this?
I say enshittification but it’s a bit of a misnomer because Apple Maps hasn’t ever really not been shit, but anyway…
>Any indications the new CEO will be less inclined to embrace enshittification like this?
The linked page for ads on maps says "Coming soon". He didn't cut it off, so looks like he'll be complicit in the enshitification
New one isn't taking over until September.