This reminds me of an Undercover Boss episode (I think for Cinnabon).
The COO had mandated no more than 30 seconds per customer so that the line kept moving.
When she went undercover, she realized that 30 seconds was barely enough time to ring up the customer, hand them their order and move on to the next customer. Great from an efficiency standpoint but terrible for customer relations as the cashier didn't even have time to say "Thank you for shopping with us!" or "How is your day going?" etc.
It's a good reminder that optimizing too much for one metric (e.g. line speed, short term profits etc) can lead to worse outcomes in the long term. On the flip side, a few extra minutes of time and effort from an employee can turn a "nice stay" into " we are customer FOR LIFE!"
My wife and I, both now-retired former Microsoft employees, were discussing such a topic just this morning (in relation to a HN headline that will become evident in a moment). Basically, I was commenting that we both worked at MS in that brief moment of time that employees were treated really well, like they really wanted us to stay there. The beer at morale events was small, local breweries (Mac and Jack's, typically). The morale events themselves were on a regular cadence. More t-shirts than I had days to wear them. Need a new monitor? If it's been a few years, "go ask your admin", and one just shows up. Yes, we had private offices. Some big things, like the offices, but also a lot of little, popsicle-like things that added up to, "wow, I feel like they want me here."
Then the morale events started becoming less frequent. The beer went from local to Bud and Bud Light. Then according to my wife, it went from Bud to Kirkland (the brand you find at Costco). Morale budget went from $WHATEVER to $40/head/year. Even the employee stock purchase plan discount went from 15% to 10%. You can look up the famous "shrimp and weenies" memo at Microsoft. I was on board with that, we didn't need shrimp. But now they don't even get the weenies.
And now Meta is recording your every keystroke and mouse movement, and I'm sure if they even get beer, it's no better than Microsoft has. Employees seem to be viewed as a liability now, or at best, code-producing cows to be milked out there in the open office feed lot. I don't care how much it pays these days, I've tasted how it could be, and no amount of money would get me back. All because companies can't spend an extra $100-$200 on their >$200K employees.
It's insane to me how big companies don't realize how far these little things go.
I worked at a publicly traded company worth tens of billions of dollars where I had to escalate to the VP level to get reimbursed when I paid for our team to send flowers to one of our team members after his mother was murdered. Expensing books, courses, or equipment is essentially out of the question and getting approval for team events requires a business related reason and are regularly denied.
I worked at a 50 person company where on my first day I arrived and there was a company logo'd Patagonia jacket on my desk and a small bottle of Veuve Clicquot. I worked at a different just allocated every team $100 per person every 6 months and said, "Do something with it. The only rules are you can't just pocket it and it has to be spent as a team."
The large company paid me triple what those other companies did, which is why I stayed for nearly 8 years, but in my head they're the cheap bastards who didn't care about their employees. I have such better memories of the companies who paid me far, far less, but set aside a few hundred bucks a year to do something special. I understand the big tech company mindset of, "If we're paying you half a million dollars a year you should be able to buy your own damn beer", but I think they forget that their employees are human and often it really is the thought that counts.
>I worked at a 50 person company where on my first day I arrived and there was a company logo'd Patagonia jacket on my desk and a small bottle of Veuve Clicquot.
I have the opposite experience and mindset. Companies I worked for would cheap out on salaries, but would buy random knick knacks, jackets, food and drinks for the workers, making the young naive version of me thinking that the company values us even though we were all working below market wages, while the CEO had a massive house and a supercar. Turns out that pizza, coke and a softshell jacket every year is much much cheaper than a yearly wage increase.
Now, I worked for a company who last year cut all the parties, food, drinks, team events, 3 year HW refresh cycle, even the color printers, to ensure we'll still get to keep above average salaries through the tremulous times our industry is going through. Absolute respect. I'd rather have more money to pay the ever increasing bills, than pizzas and a 50 Euro softshell jacket.
>I understand the big tech company mindset of, "If we're paying you half a million dollars a year you should be able to buy your own damn beer", but I think they forget that their employees are human and often it really is the thought that counts.
I wonder if it's possible to tell this story on how dehumanizing it felt to not get free beer with a half million dollar salary, to an average laborer, with a straight face, and expecting any reciprocating "working class" empathy.
The point is it’s not about the monetary value of the perks but about the attitude. If you used to get donuts in the break room on Fridays or get a card on your birthday or whatever, and then management decided you don’t need donuts you’d feel about the same way.
>If you used to get donuts in the break room on Fridays and then management decided you don’t need donuts you’d feel about the same way.
When they took away our daily free biscuits and hazelnut wafers from the break room, I was happy since it meant less sugar and carbs in my diet. My waistline was thankful. I'd rather they cut the junk food than stuff like salaries.
I really don't value small freebies anymore, in fact now it's a red flag to me. A small startup I recently interviewed at proudly showed off the free sweets, drinks fridge and pool table in the break room, but wanted to pay me 50k Euros/year for a senior product owner. They can shove those perks up their bum with that salary.
First, I want to fully acknowledge that these are tech bro problems that barely register in the grand scheme of things. I spent the first half of my adult life working minimum wage service industry jobs and more of my social circle than not are not in tech, so I fully get how entitled this sounds to anyone outside of big tech.
With that out of the way, I think you misinterpreted my comment a bit. I wasn't saying that want a nice jacket and a small bottle of Veuve over a decent salary. I was saying that the fact that they took time to do something a little bit special and unique created a positive memory.
I think if I give slightly contrasting stories it'll illustrate my point. At the company I talked about that gave me the Veuve bottle on the first day, the Patagonia jacket that I got was the same one the CEO had and regularly wore. I also learned later when I found a box of small Veuve bottles in a storage closet that the CEO chose that brand because he personally liked Veuve for special occasions. Whether intended or not, I remember feeling valued because it didn't feel like these were cheap knick knacks to keep the workers happy. The fact that he actually liked these things made them feel like a real gift and that was very humanizing.
On the other hand, I was at another company where they gave everyone somewhat cheap jackets for a big event and then the exec team showed up in brand new, matching, leather jackets for the same event. That kind of pissed me off because it basically said, we're too good for the gift we just gave you.
Like I said in the last comment, I don't really care about the things, it's the thought that counts.
So when I talk about the "buy your own damn beer" thing, I'm not saying I want a pizza party instead of a raise. I'm saying that if the company is in financial trouble and we need to cut the perks to make pay, that's fine. If the company telling employees they can't afford a few six packs while reporting record profits and the CEO is buying a new Lambo then that's a totally different story. If a company is penny pinching for no reason and they're fine sending that signal, then it's their prerogative, but given how much companies spend on recruiting talent, I feel like if shelling out an extra $200/yr in a way that feels even a little bit personalized is a no brainer.
The companies realize this, your mistake is expecting capitalists to not exploit labor.
If you want actual improved working conditions, there is only one path that has proven to work and it involves organizing with other workers while resisting your bosses through whatever means you feel comfortable with.
The US has one of the most violent labor histories on the planet for a reason. The elites in this country absolutely do not like relinquishing control to an accountable public. There is a reason why the constitution was written as a document to benefit a minority of slavers, just like there is a reason why you don't get time-and-a-half when you're on-call as a tech worker; a group of undemocratic individuals want to hold dominion over your life while shaking you down for everything you're worth.
> If you want actual improved working conditions, there is only one path that has proven to work and it involves organizing with other workers while resisting your bosses through whatever means you feel comfortable with.
Clearly that isn't true. I've worked at plenty of companies that treated me very well that didn't require organized resistance to get. I was literally talking about two of them in the comment you're responding to. You mention "there is a reason why you don't get time-and-a-half when you're on-call as a tech worker", but I've worked at companies who did that. Shit, Google does that. Your claim that "the only way" forward is for workers or organize and resist is undermined a bit by the fact that one of the largest tech companies on earth already does the thing that you're claiming can only be achieved by organized resistance.
If you like the idea of unionization that's great. I'm not particularly against it for other people, but it's not a magic wand. I spent a chunk of my life working as a checker at a unionized grocery store and I've never felt more like just a piece of meat than at that job and that feeling came from both the way my employer treated me AND the way the union treated me.
Like I hinted at before, I don't really want to join a union. I'm not going to stand in other people's way if that's what they want, but it wasn't for me. My experience was that it was kind of just trading one master for another. I just want to spend $250 on lunch for my team for Bob's birthday and I don't think a union is going to help with that.
I resent such spending for the most part, as cheap psyops. A few official beers or pizzas do not have a salient morale effect on a team that works together all day, at least in my experience. Neither do cute Slack callouts or Employees of the Month. For me, even a significant cash bonus is a cheap shortcut compared to the actual signal of appreciation of an actual raise. It's my salary that makes me feel like a valued team member, not a slice of cold pepperoni.
I look at such things similarly, and have never felt like "team building exercises" were particularly valuable. I'm working with these people on the products we build for hours every day; I don't need to do an escape room with them to "team build".
That said, I have to recognize that this may be partially because of my personality. I don't "do great" at mixers like this. I'd rather go home and be with my family than drink beer—regardless of label—in a corporate setting. People describe me as charismatic and engaging one-on-one, but I'm awkward and unhappy at a big crowd event.
But there are other people whom I think get a lot of value and connections out of them! So it's kinda hard for me to say.
Downgrades in quality, though, stick out like a sore thumb. "I didn't really like going to these things before, but at least they had good beer." It can also be a real "it's the thought that counts" sort of thing. When you show me that you're willing to spend less on me, it sends a signal, sometimes stronger than if you'd never spent anything on me in the first place.
I think this conflates symptoms and causes. You'd still be a code producing cow with a craft brew in your hand. $200 fun budgets, IME, doesn't help that and more often is another sort of obligation.
The problem with free is that people get entitled. You can see some examples in this thread.
"Everybody likes free. But free can be dangerous, too. Today's show is about what happens when you take something that was free and you give it a price. That is a highly risky move. And the damage can be enormous."
This theory comes from what Kano calls delighters. In the 1980’s Noriaki Kano came up with the a product framework called the Kano model.
Touchpoints come in three ways. Delighters as already mentioned, a popsicle delivered to your room, or a chocolate on your pillow. Then there are performance needs. In the case of a hotel this could be the quality of the view, or the case of an employee the basic wage, and then next is the basic needs. Using the hotel example this would be something like the air conditioning.
You complain if it does not work, but nobody writes a review about how perfect the aircon was.
for me the takeaway is more if I have a business what can I do for my customers like offer a free popsicle that can keep them happy and coming back cheaply
Yes, we stayed at one near ORF a few weeks ago. We thought the staff were weirdly enthusiastic about a not very good mass produced cookie actually. Might stay there again, but not because of the gimmick.
This reminds me of an Undercover Boss episode (I think for Cinnabon).
The COO had mandated no more than 30 seconds per customer so that the line kept moving.
When she went undercover, she realized that 30 seconds was barely enough time to ring up the customer, hand them their order and move on to the next customer. Great from an efficiency standpoint but terrible for customer relations as the cashier didn't even have time to say "Thank you for shopping with us!" or "How is your day going?" etc.
It's a good reminder that optimizing too much for one metric (e.g. line speed, short term profits etc) can lead to worse outcomes in the long term. On the flip side, a few extra minutes of time and effort from an employee can turn a "nice stay" into " we are customer FOR LIFE!"
My wife and I, both now-retired former Microsoft employees, were discussing such a topic just this morning (in relation to a HN headline that will become evident in a moment). Basically, I was commenting that we both worked at MS in that brief moment of time that employees were treated really well, like they really wanted us to stay there. The beer at morale events was small, local breweries (Mac and Jack's, typically). The morale events themselves were on a regular cadence. More t-shirts than I had days to wear them. Need a new monitor? If it's been a few years, "go ask your admin", and one just shows up. Yes, we had private offices. Some big things, like the offices, but also a lot of little, popsicle-like things that added up to, "wow, I feel like they want me here."
Then the morale events started becoming less frequent. The beer went from local to Bud and Bud Light. Then according to my wife, it went from Bud to Kirkland (the brand you find at Costco). Morale budget went from $WHATEVER to $40/head/year. Even the employee stock purchase plan discount went from 15% to 10%. You can look up the famous "shrimp and weenies" memo at Microsoft. I was on board with that, we didn't need shrimp. But now they don't even get the weenies.
And now Meta is recording your every keystroke and mouse movement, and I'm sure if they even get beer, it's no better than Microsoft has. Employees seem to be viewed as a liability now, or at best, code-producing cows to be milked out there in the open office feed lot. I don't care how much it pays these days, I've tasted how it could be, and no amount of money would get me back. All because companies can't spend an extra $100-$200 on their >$200K employees.
It's insane to me how big companies don't realize how far these little things go.
I worked at a publicly traded company worth tens of billions of dollars where I had to escalate to the VP level to get reimbursed when I paid for our team to send flowers to one of our team members after his mother was murdered. Expensing books, courses, or equipment is essentially out of the question and getting approval for team events requires a business related reason and are regularly denied.
I worked at a 50 person company where on my first day I arrived and there was a company logo'd Patagonia jacket on my desk and a small bottle of Veuve Clicquot. I worked at a different just allocated every team $100 per person every 6 months and said, "Do something with it. The only rules are you can't just pocket it and it has to be spent as a team."
The large company paid me triple what those other companies did, which is why I stayed for nearly 8 years, but in my head they're the cheap bastards who didn't care about their employees. I have such better memories of the companies who paid me far, far less, but set aside a few hundred bucks a year to do something special. I understand the big tech company mindset of, "If we're paying you half a million dollars a year you should be able to buy your own damn beer", but I think they forget that their employees are human and often it really is the thought that counts.
>I worked at a 50 person company where on my first day I arrived and there was a company logo'd Patagonia jacket on my desk and a small bottle of Veuve Clicquot.
I have the opposite experience and mindset. Companies I worked for would cheap out on salaries, but would buy random knick knacks, jackets, food and drinks for the workers, making the young naive version of me thinking that the company values us even though we were all working below market wages, while the CEO had a massive house and a supercar. Turns out that pizza, coke and a softshell jacket every year is much much cheaper than a yearly wage increase.
Now, I worked for a company who last year cut all the parties, food, drinks, team events, 3 year HW refresh cycle, even the color printers, to ensure we'll still get to keep above average salaries through the tremulous times our industry is going through. Absolute respect. I'd rather have more money to pay the ever increasing bills, than pizzas and a 50 Euro softshell jacket.
>I understand the big tech company mindset of, "If we're paying you half a million dollars a year you should be able to buy your own damn beer", but I think they forget that their employees are human and often it really is the thought that counts.
I wonder if it's possible to tell this story on how dehumanizing it felt to not get free beer with a half million dollar salary, to an average laborer, with a straight face, and expecting any reciprocating "working class" empathy.
The point is it’s not about the monetary value of the perks but about the attitude. If you used to get donuts in the break room on Fridays or get a card on your birthday or whatever, and then management decided you don’t need donuts you’d feel about the same way.
>If you used to get donuts in the break room on Fridays and then management decided you don’t need donuts you’d feel about the same way.
When they took away our daily free biscuits and hazelnut wafers from the break room, I was happy since it meant less sugar and carbs in my diet. My waistline was thankful. I'd rather they cut the junk food than stuff like salaries.
I really don't value small freebies anymore, in fact now it's a red flag to me. A small startup I recently interviewed at proudly showed off the free sweets, drinks fridge and pool table in the break room, but wanted to pay me 50k Euros/year for a senior product owner. They can shove those perks up their bum with that salary.
Okay pretend I said baby carrots if you prefer.
I’m sure some companies do cynically provide perks to try to buy or dazzle people, but I don’t think that that’s the only reason that anyone does it.
First, I want to fully acknowledge that these are tech bro problems that barely register in the grand scheme of things. I spent the first half of my adult life working minimum wage service industry jobs and more of my social circle than not are not in tech, so I fully get how entitled this sounds to anyone outside of big tech.
With that out of the way, I think you misinterpreted my comment a bit. I wasn't saying that want a nice jacket and a small bottle of Veuve over a decent salary. I was saying that the fact that they took time to do something a little bit special and unique created a positive memory.
I think if I give slightly contrasting stories it'll illustrate my point. At the company I talked about that gave me the Veuve bottle on the first day, the Patagonia jacket that I got was the same one the CEO had and regularly wore. I also learned later when I found a box of small Veuve bottles in a storage closet that the CEO chose that brand because he personally liked Veuve for special occasions. Whether intended or not, I remember feeling valued because it didn't feel like these were cheap knick knacks to keep the workers happy. The fact that he actually liked these things made them feel like a real gift and that was very humanizing.
On the other hand, I was at another company where they gave everyone somewhat cheap jackets for a big event and then the exec team showed up in brand new, matching, leather jackets for the same event. That kind of pissed me off because it basically said, we're too good for the gift we just gave you.
Like I said in the last comment, I don't really care about the things, it's the thought that counts.
So when I talk about the "buy your own damn beer" thing, I'm not saying I want a pizza party instead of a raise. I'm saying that if the company is in financial trouble and we need to cut the perks to make pay, that's fine. If the company telling employees they can't afford a few six packs while reporting record profits and the CEO is buying a new Lambo then that's a totally different story. If a company is penny pinching for no reason and they're fine sending that signal, then it's their prerogative, but given how much companies spend on recruiting talent, I feel like if shelling out an extra $200/yr in a way that feels even a little bit personalized is a no brainer.
The companies realize this, your mistake is expecting capitalists to not exploit labor.
If you want actual improved working conditions, there is only one path that has proven to work and it involves organizing with other workers while resisting your bosses through whatever means you feel comfortable with.
The US has one of the most violent labor histories on the planet for a reason. The elites in this country absolutely do not like relinquishing control to an accountable public. There is a reason why the constitution was written as a document to benefit a minority of slavers, just like there is a reason why you don't get time-and-a-half when you're on-call as a tech worker; a group of undemocratic individuals want to hold dominion over your life while shaking you down for everything you're worth.
> If you want actual improved working conditions, there is only one path that has proven to work and it involves organizing with other workers while resisting your bosses through whatever means you feel comfortable with.
Clearly that isn't true. I've worked at plenty of companies that treated me very well that didn't require organized resistance to get. I was literally talking about two of them in the comment you're responding to. You mention "there is a reason why you don't get time-and-a-half when you're on-call as a tech worker", but I've worked at companies who did that. Shit, Google does that. Your claim that "the only way" forward is for workers or organize and resist is undermined a bit by the fact that one of the largest tech companies on earth already does the thing that you're claiming can only be achieved by organized resistance.
If you like the idea of unionization that's great. I'm not particularly against it for other people, but it's not a magic wand. I spent a chunk of my life working as a checker at a unionized grocery store and I've never felt more like just a piece of meat than at that job and that feeling came from both the way my employer treated me AND the way the union treated me.
Like I hinted at before, I don't really want to join a union. I'm not going to stand in other people's way if that's what they want, but it wasn't for me. My experience was that it was kind of just trading one master for another. I just want to spend $250 on lunch for my team for Bob's birthday and I don't think a union is going to help with that.
Programmers are the easiest target: they're the group most averse to organizing; their bosses, however, are not.
I thought this would mention Microsoft taking away free sodas
https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...
I resent such spending for the most part, as cheap psyops. A few official beers or pizzas do not have a salient morale effect on a team that works together all day, at least in my experience. Neither do cute Slack callouts or Employees of the Month. For me, even a significant cash bonus is a cheap shortcut compared to the actual signal of appreciation of an actual raise. It's my salary that makes me feel like a valued team member, not a slice of cold pepperoni.
I look at such things similarly, and have never felt like "team building exercises" were particularly valuable. I'm working with these people on the products we build for hours every day; I don't need to do an escape room with them to "team build".
That said, I have to recognize that this may be partially because of my personality. I don't "do great" at mixers like this. I'd rather go home and be with my family than drink beer—regardless of label—in a corporate setting. People describe me as charismatic and engaging one-on-one, but I'm awkward and unhappy at a big crowd event.
But there are other people whom I think get a lot of value and connections out of them! So it's kinda hard for me to say.
Downgrades in quality, though, stick out like a sore thumb. "I didn't really like going to these things before, but at least they had good beer." It can also be a real "it's the thought that counts" sort of thing. When you show me that you're willing to spend less on me, it sends a signal, sometimes stronger than if you'd never spent anything on me in the first place.
The issue is companies are getting too stingy for even cheap psyops now.
The fear of the guillotine has been lost...
I think this conflates symptoms and causes. You'd still be a code producing cow with a craft brew in your hand. $200 fun budgets, IME, doesn't help that and more often is another sort of obligation.
> The beer went from local to Bud and Bud Light. Then according to my wife, it went from Bud to Kirkland (the brand you find at Costco)
So, back to local breweries? /s
Huge upgrade though ;)
sigh, have your upvote. :-)
The problem with free is that people get entitled. You can see some examples in this thread.
"Everybody likes free. But free can be dangerous, too. Today's show is about what happens when you take something that was free and you give it a price. That is a highly risky move. And the damage can be enormous."
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/08/794592539/episode-386-the-cos...
Todd McFarlane was on the Tim Ferriss podcast and he had a great line:
"If you offer people $5 worth of value and charge them $6, they are going to be mad.
If you offer them $9 worth of value for $9, they are going to think you are amazing."
This theory comes from what Kano calls delighters. In the 1980’s Noriaki Kano came up with the a product framework called the Kano model.
Touchpoints come in three ways. Delighters as already mentioned, a popsicle delivered to your room, or a chocolate on your pillow. Then there are performance needs. In the case of a hotel this could be the quality of the view, or the case of an employee the basic wage, and then next is the basic needs. Using the hotel example this would be something like the air conditioning.
You complain if it does not work, but nobody writes a review about how perfect the aircon was.
There’s a lot of value in making someone feel cared for.
Whether you do that with a popsicle or with the staff and infrastructure of a $700/night hotel room is kind of a wash.
for me the takeaway is more if I have a business what can I do for my customers like offer a free popsicle that can keep them happy and coming back cheaply
Speaking as someone on a salary. Idk.
Does DoubleTree still give you fresh-baked cookies when you check in?
Yes, we stayed at one near ORF a few weeks ago. We thought the staff were weirdly enthusiastic about a not very good mass produced cookie actually. Might stay there again, but not because of the gimmick.
At least as of a couple years ago, yes.