> Between October 7, 2023 and October 7, 2025, at least 20,179 children were killed, around 30% of the overall death toll.
> A rebuttal shared by Israel's mission in Geneva said Israel "consistently strives to minimize harm to children even in situations of conflict".
Well, it is certainly no question that Israel is killing children en masse.
Israeli officials are saying “but we are trying to minimize”. Well, these attempts clearly failed given 20,179 fatal cases, and let’s also consider all physically injured and traumatized children.
Still, as of today, Israel is killing a child per day in Gaza [1].
So either it is complete incompetence of Israels warfare methods, or it is done on purpose.
No matter how you try to frame it, package it: this is not right and Israel should be sanctioned internationally.
Fundamentalists rule this nation. Sanction them, no weapon exports and their actions are not aligned with their official rhetoric.
Also, October 7, October 7, October 7. Yes, horrible, but at what point does the consensus become that October 7 starts to look like a small event in light of the death toll on the other side?
Spoiler: we should be way beyond that. Over 97% of all total casualties are on the Palestinian side [2].
> Yes, horrible, but at what point does the consensus become that October 7 starts to look like a small event in light of the death toll on the other side
At the point when other side (free palestine and alike) start acknowledging it. Two wrongs don't make something right.
Start with teaching Palestine supporters that hamas is not the answer. And maybe, maybe after that people start seeing Palestine people as victims. Without it, most people will continue supporting Israel, not because they think that it does no wrong. But in comparison with hamas and their supporters Israel is lesser evil.
Almost all Israelis are IDF members, members of various intelligence and defense companies. If we plotted a map of a suitable attack radius around all valid combat targets in Israel, almost the entirety of their "civilian" regions would be covered.
> maybe after that people start seeing Palestine people as victims. Without it, most people will continue supporting Israel
Most of the world sees Palestinians as the victims and Zionists are very much the global minority. Hamas made that a reality, so I think they are the answer. I certainly support their resistance to Zionism, just like the Haitian slave revolt.
Maybe to spark curious conversation, when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? It does seem like UN is unable to really make a dent here.
The only thing saving Israel is the US protection and the nukes. US protection can change. Nukes are harder.
South Africa successfully utilized "strategic ambiguity". They never explicitly acknowledged they had the weapons, while making sure world leaders knew they were a credible threat.
during South Africa's border wars (specifically against the Cubans in Angola), there were internal discussions about deploying tactical nuclear weapons. Because world leaders viewed that threat as entirely credible, it gave South Africa massive leverage.
Feels like world leaders view modern Israeli threats through the exact same lens and i'd agree given recent covert operations like the beeper bombings hence this UN posture.
Could we replicate the SA situation? probably not but maybe partially?
When the Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended, South Africa’s strategic leverage evaporated overnight. The US and UK no longer had a reason to shield them from crippling global economic sanctions.
Feels like we are watching this in real time with Israel post Iran war. If the US entirely removed its diplomatic shield and allowed full global economic isolation to set in, the economic cost of maintaining a pariah state might eventually outweigh the perceived security benefit of the weapons. ('might' doing a lot of heavy lifting there)
Also SA was also motivated by fear of the nukes getting in the hands of the incoming leftist government, Israel does not have that fear.
Not sure if it used to be the case with South Africa too, but I'm baffled how much ideological support Israel still has, in various population groups. There are at least two religious groups who seem to view it as integral part of a divine plan that trumps all other considerations. ("mainstream" Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians)
Then there various secular narratives around the Jewish homeland, the rebirth (and Germany's redemption) after the Holocaust etc.
For western politicians, it seems far easier to chime in to the dehumanization of Palestinians and either paint the daily suffering there as "tragic but necessary", make fun of it or dismiss it completely - than to object to those stories.
This seems to work on a different layer than geopolitics, so I have doubts that a shift in geopolitics alone would change this. (I may be wrong)
Though maybe the changed perception of Israel after the Gaza war might change it.
Just wanted to recommend the film, Ajami (2009) [1] that touches on the rather hair-trigger issues in the region. Pretty intense film that does, I think, a good job of showing all sides.
Yes, and that seems to be the rationale of western politicians as well, essentially, "we have to protect Israel to protect the Jewish people, without it, the Holocaust would risk repeating"
That makes sense as a "subjective experience" (if there is something like the subjective experience of a people), but it fails the reality check for me.
Yes, Israel is the center of Jewish life today (New York coming next apparently), but I can't really believe that it genuinely is the safest place for Jews in the world today - not after the last years. Jews in the US or Europe were not at risk of being murdered by Hamas, hit by a missile from Iran or get conscripted in a war. Jews in Israel were.
> Most want peace but believe their Arab enemies do not.
Well, everyone wants peace in the "I won" sense. I don't see that most Israeli Jews want peace in the sense of living together peacefully with their neighbors.
(Neither do their neighbors, true - which is why I fault Israelis less here than the western allies who should apply force to both sides to deescalate and reconcile if they really wanted to end the conflict, but who instead only apply pressure to one side and unquestionably support the other side)
Their neighbours don't really have an option though. Stopping all resistance will not stop the settlers from harassing and chasing away the natives, and it will not force Israel to respect any border (which they took care of not even declaring). If anything, Palestinian resistance is functional to the progress of the occupation, so, if things get too quiet, a couple of killings or demolished homes keep the situation dynamic enough.
Unless you're counting on the moral authority of the Western nations that stayed silent or even financed and armed Israel while it was starving a population under blockade and bombings, murdering tens of thousands of civilians, killing hundreds of journalists, bombing hospitals and universities. Maybe they would say something if Israel killed and conquered a population that absolutely refuses to react. What do you think?
Israel has conscription laws that require all Jews participate in the IDF. It's one of the only places on Earth where a pacifist Jew would be forcibly made to participate in lethal conflict.
There are thousands of other, safer places that a Jew (or anyone, for that matter) could choose to live. As evidenced by the lack of Iron Dome in New Jersey.
> There are hardly any Jews in Europe after the Holocaust. They're a rounding error. The communities are small and vulnerable. The largest community in France is under strain with antisemitism and is moving to Israel. The 2nd largest in the UK is not far behind.
This honestly makes no sense for me. I live in Europe (Germany) and the discussion about antisemitism and Jewish life is front-and-center here. There are also several synagogues in my city. No one, not even the pro-Palestinian protesters wants them to go away - on the contrary, most protesters (from the left!) go out of their way to stress that their protest against the state of Israel is not hate against the Jewish people. In fact, lots of protesters are Jews themselves.
Who keeps conflating the two things and blurring the boundaries in public discussion are pro-Israel orgs.
Unfortunately, you're right that real antisemitism is rising. However all European states are taking a stance against that.
There are ~100,000 German Jews, from a pre-WW2 population of 560,000 in a modern population of 83.6 million, 0.1%.
Yes, did forget that one. Reinstatement of the prohibition to Judaism's holy sites, expulsion of hundred thousands of Israelis from the West Bank, and unlimited Arab immigration to the Jewish state. But it was a peace plan.
Edit: I'm still in shock you argued that 100,000 people in a population of 83.6 million is a lot - front and centre - but hand waved the forced relocation 500,000 people in a population of 10 million in a much smaller country as just the cost of peace.
No one in Germany (except neo nazis) would object to more Jews settling here.
> but hand waved the forced relocation 500,000 people in a population of 10 million in a much smaller country as just the cost of peace.
The West Bank is not part of Israel. And evidently the Israelis expect the same of 7 million Palestinians (if they aren't trying to annihilate them outright - see OP link of this thread).
> But it was a peace plan.
It still is. It was offered again several times, last time I believe by Qatar during the Gaza war.
Israel is without a doubt, the most dangerous place for Jews in the world. Not only is the entire country built on ethnically cleansed land (and thus Zionists have the indigenous population correctly trying to get them off the land), Israel has also attacked almost every country in the region and regularly receives missile attacks.
You are missing the very massive religious and ideological groups who are on the other side and see in the destruction of Israel a divine plan or a fulfilment of some secular ideal.
This blinkered view will reasonably leave you baffled and with a distorted world model, and a perception that people are stupid when they are actually seeing the bigger picture.
No question those exist, but this ignores basic human psychology: If my whole family was wiped out in an airstrike, and then I have a whole population saying "yup, that's exactly how things should be!", of course I would start to hate them.
I don’t think you understood. You pointed out support from parts of two Abrahamic faiths for Israel, while ignoring the other major Abrahamic faith, whose opposition to Israel is older and in much greater numbers and zealotry than the evangelical one is for Israel, and has existed long before Israel even had an air force.
They are not family and often not even the same race. It’s a religious thing, but you only find two of the three religious alignments irrational, when these two are, at least in part, just reacting in response to the other.
It is funny how much hand wringing is done with nuclear weapons. like they are this big line in the sand when really the same result happens with or without them. Gaza looks as wrecked as Hiroshima or Dresden. Doesn't matter it seems in terms of the function. I guess the bigger risk is really the implication vs the action. It is like Kayfabe for the political class.
They do meaningfully care about the significant radiation that is likely to drift into their own citizens. Israel is not a large country.
Your analysis on nuclear use doesn't consider the lingering poisoning of people and land compared to conventional weapons. It's not Keyfabe. You would vastly prefer being attacked with conventional weapons.
I mean they don't care about pollutants currently harming the health of their own citizens not to mention the environmental crisis and climate change making these regions increasingly inhabitable. Why would they care about radiation? It would be easy to sweep under the rug and wash with undercoverage like the climate issues have been.
Might really is doing some heavy lifting here. If the UN turns on Israel and they become sanctioned by the west the most likely outcome is that Israel turns to China. China needs stabilizing forces in the Middle East because of their lack of domestic fossil fuels. They also see similarities between the Gaza situation and Taiwan. The Israelis are fiercely aggressive on security issues. They will not give up on that because of sanctions I think. What US backing is really doing is mostly just making it cheaper for Israel to defend itself so that the Israelis feel less pressure to be aggressive with making buffer zones. Without the US funding the iron dome we would see a real genocide in Gaza.
> when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these
If recent history is any indicator, UN isn't that structure; probably EU / G7 / BRICS & other such blocs are:
... we construct a new dataset covering all 43 very large mass atrocities perpetrated by governments or non-state actors since 1945 with at least 50,000 civilian fatalities.
This article introduces and summarizes these data, including an inductively generated typology of three major ending types: those in which (i) violence is carried out to its intended conclusion (37%); (ii) the perpetrator is driven out of power militarily (26%); or (iii) the perpetrator shifts to a different strategy no longer involving mass atrocities against civilians (37%).
We find that international actors play a range of important roles in endings, often involving encouragement and support for policy changes that reduce mass killings. Endings could be attributed principally to armed foreign interventions in only four cases, three of which involved regime change. Within the cases we study, no ending was attributable to a neutral peacekeeping mission.
The UN is really just meant to prevent World War 3 and nuclear war. It has succeeded in this for the last 70 years. The structure of the UN is basically unanimous consensus between the major world powers with each power getting a veto.
There is no unanimous consensus on this issue at all.
Did it? Because this was also always the argument for the "League of Nations" that came before it. If you read 1930s newspapers that's what they give as a reason for the organization's existence ...
Now after WW2, consensus is that the League of Nations may have outright caused WW2, and certainly contributed more than any other individual factor. The League of Nations was the embodiment of the treaty of Versailles. As if that wasn't bad enough, the League of Nations was also the league of nations that stopped most reactions against Hitler immediately before the war.
I'm not even going to bother drawing the obvious parallel with how the UN is treating nuclear powers, and people defending themselves against attacks by a nuclear (or trying-to-be-nuclear) power.
I'll just ask the forbidden question: and did WW3 not happen because of the UN ... or because of MAD?
(VERY importantly, combined with a fundamental agreement on the value of human life, at least to some extent, between the 2 dominant powers Russia and the US and now China)
Not saying that a meeting room where nuclear powers have permanent presence isn't useful. But to say it is responsible for peace somehow is just crazy.
If the latest Gaza war taught us anything, is that UN is powerless. And, unfortunately, it is the highest entity that could apply leverage here, so... Not much we can do. In the long term I hope other nations realize they are very vulnerable and begin to invest more in defense, but that escalation can have other downsides.
I'd like to add, dragging in Hitler because none of WW2 can be explained without him, and the parent poster posted details about the conflict that immediately preceded the independence of the state of Israel. Right before that, WW2 happened and so what happened in the 2 cannot be seen separate from each other.
Hence both sides' behavior during WW2 should be seen as part of the context of what David Ben-Gurion was doing, and Palestinians ... chose a side, let's put it that way.
You purposely trying to claim Hussaini was 'the pope' of Muslims as though he was a central figure of authority that spoke for Muslims/Palestinians just shows how biased you are - not surprising, given your constant bias on this topic on many other posts.
A cursory study on Islam will show you that Islam doesn't have a central figure of authority like the Pope. Therefore what Hussaini did, was him as an individual, and not a decision that can be attributed to all Muslims/Palestinians.
So the fact remains that Zionists as a group collaborated with the Nazis. Hussainin acted as an individual.
It has taught us the the UN is completely corrupted by antizionist hate.
The UN Human Rights Council passed 68 resolutions against Israel in its first decade (2006–2016) — more than the other 67 resolutions against the rest of the world combined, and three times more than any other single country. Meanwhile, 48 countries with serious human rights abuses received zero condemnatory resolutions, including China, Russia, Cuba, Yemen, and Zimbabwe. Countries that did receive resolutions included Syria (20), Myanmar (11), North Korea (9), Belarus (6), Iran (6), and Eritrea (5). Contrast these basket case countries like North Korea and Iran with Israel's record of liberal democracy, free elections, an independent judiciary, rule of law, protections for speech, religion, minorities, women, and LGBTQ people. Israel aint perfect but please, even antzionist haters can see how ridiculously corrupted the UN it is by antizionst hate.
What kind of answer are you expecting? The only “structure” that matters is power, and the only power that matters is the power to force and destroy. Everything else is derived from that, not the other way round.
I think this is a good argument why a singular world power is actually a bad thing - because no matter how much it will promote itself as the "good guys" (and of course it will), at the end of the day, it will push through its own interests by that dominance - whereas if power is more evenly distributed, countries might be more willing to agree to common, formalized rules and a "neutral" body to evaluate them.
I think the emergence of nation states with democratic institutions and a strong system of law is actually a hopeful precedent here. Somehow we got from a world of fiefdoms and lords that literally stood above the law to states with checks and balances. (Yes, we're sliding back towards the "fiefdoms" situation right now, but we're still far better than things used to be)
So I'm gonna be a starry-eyed idealist and keep the hope up that we might archive the same on a global level at some point.
History has shown that having a multitude of roughly-equal competing powers results in more per-capita death from war than when there is 1 or two dominant nations. The 1800's and early 1900's were bloody. Post WWII has had less death from war.
Bilateral is stable. Multilateral is not. We have limited evidence nukes change that. Currently, with the implosion of Pax Americana, we’re hearing words a multi-lateral theatre in the Middle East and Asia. Hence the heightened risk of nuclear power in one of those settings. (Europe remains a bilateral theatre.)
True, though post-WWII was not a single power either until the 90s. We've had several decades of Cold War in which there were at least two great powers.
> when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these?
Apply the Apartheid South Africa treatament. Gather the larger number possible of complying members, and apply a coordinated boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign to put pressure in the party engaged in genocide, ethnic cleansing or other abhorrent actions.
Maybe it would help if other countries focused on the immediate problem: rescuing people from a dangerous situation. They should be volunteering to take refugees.
Sadly, it's unlikely because they care more about keeping immigrants out.
Unless you're talking about Zionists returning to their homeland, you're advocating for ethnic cleansing. Palestinians should not be refugees from their own land.
I shouldn't even engage with this since you've been spamming the entire thread with pro-Israel hasbara, but Ashkenazis are native to Europe not the Middle East, and yes they should return to their homeland -- mainly Eastern and Central Europe.
Allowing the Palestinians to return to their stolen homes and not be genocided is not "blood and soil racism". Zionism is, just without the blood part.
Do you plan to do that to any other Countries in the Middle East?
Saudi Arabia's human rights record all good for you?
Pakistan?
China and the Uyghurs - mass internment camps and sterilisation of female prisoners. They get a complete pass?
Antizionism is Bondi Beach.
Antizionism is a hate movement.
Many countries have strict laws how to deal with genocide, genocide support, and genocide deniers! So just enforce local laws, report supporters of genocide to police.
This doesn't seem to even relate to the question. How am I suppose to out the Israeli government to my local police? Or the miriad entities that support it?
Indeed. It has to be a particular kind of recognized genocide, and then people just don't agree on what is and isn't a genocide. Turkey is the worst offender there, but it's quite a widespread problem.
And, of course, the problem is people don't agree. Turkey refuses to accept many of it's actions as genocidal (because that's how Turkey was created: when the last islamic state ("the Ottoman empire") got destroyed by Turks (who at that point were the ottoman army), they massacred a LOT of population groups, famously the Armenians but academics name more than a dozen separate genocides: Greeks, Kurds, Azeri, Jews, ...)
Oh and of course they kept doing it. Technically what Turkey did in Cyprus is also a genocide, and they have an active policy of replacing Kurd population groups but that's, if that's even possible, an even worse sore point.
The sad fact is that these genocides happened to gain territory. And, most of that territory, go look at Google Maps. This was mostly deep inland Turkey. And ... Turks obviously don't want it. There's no big cities there, and the more east you go, the less little towns, the less people, the less everything (except on the border). After the genocides what was a European landscape, a village every 5km or so is now empty. Hundreds of kilometers of nothing. Names on a map , with nothing or ruins below them. You don't really need a line to find the Armenian or Georgian border: where the farms begin, the rectangular fields, the villages, you've crossed the Turkish border. In other words: what repopulation the Turks did ... is a failure. And what little remains, mostly near the black sea, is losing young people at an astonishing rate. This is huge empty space, mostly ecologically destroyed land, not productive farmland. Not nature preserves. Nothing.
Also the reverse also doesn't apply. The UN may have trouble with Israeli actions, but where the UN took control to resolve the situation, where the UN took action, most famously southern Lebanon, it has not just failed but it systematically kept getting worse for 50+ years now. Whereas at least for Israel you can say: look at Tel Aviv. Look at Jerusalem. Look at Haifa. They really built something. Where the UN "helped" ... there's nothing.
> Don't call it a genocide and then you don't need to do anything about it
Personally speaking, the is-it-a-genocide debate makes me tune out. It’s hyperlegal, clearly a moving target and selectively prosecuted by each side to the point of, often, absurdity.
If two people want to debate it, fine, but I have no obligation to pay attention. If we want to talk about harms and harm reduction, that feels more concrete and relatable.
By defunding the UN until it falls apart and is rebuilt from scratch. Right now it's a dysfunctional joke. As are most "international" bodies created just after 1945. "Rules based order" when it suits you, "preemptive strikes" when it doesn't.
The only thing which counts is raw power and the means to deliver it. The US just got a lesson in its limits from the Iranian regime.
Countries with natural resources need their own defense against thieves like the US and its vassals. Libya, Iraq, Syria. Oil and no nukes. Fat use the UN was for them.
(Forget about the UN. Take a home owners' association. In due course a clique will take it over and corrupt it.)
Uhhh, irony and facts are not mutually exclusive categories.
And advocating for the dissolution and replacement of the UN due to it being ineffective is deeply ironic, because that's exactly what happened with the League of Nations, which led to the later formation of the UN.
You seem to be in an argumentative mood, but nothing I said is disagreeing with you about the ineffectuality of the UN.
The security council was built around the nuclear powers at the time. I guess there are two ways to look at it:
1: The new nuclear powers should be included, I guess including N Korea, India, and Pakistan. And possibly Israel, if they admit to having them.
2: Rethink the whole thing. Are nukes really as important as everybody thought they were after WWII? If not, what should we look at to decide who to include?
> The security council was built around the nuclear powers at the time.
That's not actually true, the 5 permanent seats on the UNSC were granted in 1945, well before any country aside from the US managed to develop nuclear weapons.
Those 5 countries did all eventually develop nuclear weapons and became nuclear weapon states under the NPT but that happened quite a bit later.
> Are nukes really as important as everybody thought they were after WWII?
Possibly moreso. Nuclear sovereignty is demonstrably above the conventional type. At the end of the day, having a forum where nuclear powers with long-range delivery capability can veto things reduces the risk of them using that capability to veto in the real world.
By the range requirement, Tel Aviv and Pyongyang qualify for UNSC inclusion. New Delhi and Islamabad do not—they will mostly just nuke each other.
I haven’t run the stats on this but it seems to me that countries which have nukes are more likely to invade other countries and then use the nukes as shields to prevent retaliation.
Out of the 9 current nuclear armed countries 5 have invaded another countries this century, and three of the most prolific invaders this century (Israel, USA, and Russia; each with over 3 invasions this century) are all nuclear armed. Out of the 4 countries which haven‘t invaded another country this century, two (India and Pakistan) regularly engage in border skirmishes and bombing campaigns. This leaves China and North Korea as the only two nuclear armed countries (out of 9) which don‘t regularly engage in foreign wars.
By our current experience, the proliferation of nuclear armed states is almost certain to end in a disaster at a previously unseen scale. We should be doing everything in our power to prevent this world of future horrors.
the vetoes are pretty much the sole differentiator between the UN and the league of nations, which failed.
in theory its better if you don't give veto power to great powers because they'll abuse it. in practice it's what keeps the fragile system that prevents WW3 from total collapse, as happened with the league of nations.
I sort of see your logic other than South Africa. Why would you drop two nuclear powers who have some means of force projection for a middling economy and military?
> British nukes are a joke, they're controlled by the US.
While it maybe be true that some of the nukes in the UK(i.e. US B61 gravity bombs) may be under the control of the US, the UK still maintains full control over their submarine launched nukes AFAIU.
Are you trying to be equitable or based on power? If it’s the latter then unfortunately no nation in Africa currently has equivalent power.
Australia would be a better option in either case since they are a continent in of themselves and within spitting distance from being a nuclear power after Biden fucked over the French and beat them to a deal for nuclear subs with Australia.
And re: Britain’s nuclear power being controlled by the US. That’s just the maintenance. They still have the nukes and could easily turn to France as the refurbisher if the US denies them. Might even work out as a conciliatory point for the return to the EU that Burnham is harking about.
The under-18 population in the Gaza strip is roughly 47% (according to PCBS). So if deaths fell randomly across the population, children would be ~47% of the dead. They are ~30%. Also the numbers pipeline again runs through Hamas and there is the fact that the UN Council has passed more condemnatory resolutions on Israel than on any other single state (more than Syria, Myanmar, Yemen etc). I am surprised I don't see more nuance on HN.
Adult men have the highest casualties which is what would be expected since Hamas militants are most often adult men, it's well documented that Hamas also uses child soldiers to some degree as well.
This is common sense. It's astonishing that this needs to be explicitly stated on a site like this.
That's not to say that 30% isn't a crime against humanity. About 1.5 million children were murdered during the Holocaust (1.5M of 6M+ deaths). Israel murders more children than adults when compared to the Nazis.
I agree, however the claim is not war crimes, its genocide. People think that using genocide to simply mean lots of killing and destruction and war makes them morally superior, but genocide entails "intent" and we need a vocabulary to differentiate between the two.
Overall, intent is quite hard to prove. You would need to access internal documents and communications that explicitly direct the military. That's probably not going to happen.
However, from what I have observed, Israeli government officials have often expresses that intent publicly, despite claiming otherwise at the UN.
I am sorry but did you look at pictures of Gaza?
Do you not see them actually CONCENTRATING the previously 2 million people there into a gigantic CAMP?
If you try very hard, you can understand the reason for bombardment, at least from the BEGINNING. Surely, not the reason for killing these poor children.
But I never came to better conclusion about West Bank annexation that that it is pure imperialism. Basically what russians are trying in Ukraine. I'm still not quite sure what is the purpose, there is really not enough land or it's all just bs?
The west bank annexation happened in response to Jordanian aggression (who were joining with Egypt, with whom Jordan had a mutual defense pact, in a war I would say was ambiguously instigated by Israel/Egypt).
Israel holds the territory with its army, and claims that neither Jordan (nor any country) owned it beforehand, which is a better-founded argument than some people may expect - the west bank was originally, by england, designated as a palestinian - not jordanian - state, arab leadership rejected it (to also reject an israeli state), england withdrew from it, and jordan occupied it, with very very limited international recognition.
It's a pretty crazy history, I hope I got it right, please fact-check me.
Not sure it's the same thing. Russians want political and territorial control in Ukraine, not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians". Israel wants to conquer the whole of Palestine (West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem) to replace the native population with its own. There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design.
> There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design.
About 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab so Palestinian integration into a state with a Jewish majority can work to a degree. The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work(i.e. basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries).
The linked article is also blaming socioeconomic differences on Israel. But by many metrics Israeli Arabs are doing better than Arabs in other Arab countries. E.g. life expectancy for Israeli Arabs is higher than the Arab average, and higher than Jordan or Egypt.
Similarly for income. While Israeli Arabs on average earn 65% that of Jewish Israelis at $2,400 vs $3,750, the average income in Jordan is $865, and Egypt $235.
But differences in socioeconomic status between groups exist in every country.
Imagine a parent introducing some special rules to protect a kid that’s being punched, like having them sit at the front, and the bullies start crying why they can’t sit in the front.
You choosing to zoom in and crop the picture shows a level of disingenuity likely due to ulterior bias.
The area under control of the PA is ethnically cleansed from Jews, with an ongoing apartheid where, for example, selling property to Jews is punishable by death, and they have government issued bounties for the killing of Jews.
So Israel has restricted marriage visas from that location. The law still applies to every Israeli equally - Jews also cannot bring in people from that area on a marriage visa.
The Jewish majority is not an issue. The issue is that Israel is not "the state of the Israelis", it's the Jewish state. You can become an Israeli, you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever.
> The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work
This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones.
> basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries
Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. In many cases it was actually better. The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims.
> you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever.
AFAIU Israel does accept conversions to Judaism so that's not actually accurate.
> This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side.
I'm not justifying actual wrongs, however Israel giving citizenship to all individuals who claim to be Palestinians is unlikely to result in a good outcome.
> In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones.
Just look at Palestinian opinion polling and it will become clear why giving citizenship to all Palestinians would likely result in a civil war.
> Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries.
Jews lived as second class citizens in Muslim majority countries.
> In many cases it was actually better.
That's not really saying much.
> The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims.
Yet there are far more Jews living in Europe today than there are Jews living in MENA countries(excluding Israel). Maybe Europeans largely learned that their past behavior was wrong while those in MENA countries largely did not.
Well russians over the history resettled the native population numerous times, even resettle russians there.
But the truth is they mostly want control for whatever reason they made up. Part of their propaganda is thet Ukrainians are basically confused russians so you got the point here.
But I wouldn't be sure about your claim regarding Israel. Even now there are millions of Palestinians with Israel citizenship. I understand the deeply rooted animosity with hamas but I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank. I suppose it have something to do with their extreme religious part of goverment?
You've had a point. Maybe it's more like Native Americans and colonizer type of situation.
> I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank
Besides the obvious religious/ ideological motivation, there's also a simple matter of territory: Israel is a small country and the West Bank and Gaza have a lot of value, both for the country as a whole (more space for more people, more natural resources, nobody to share with) as well as commercial value- think developments, real estate, industrial and agricultural areas, seafront properties, etc. Very hard to keep your hands off this bounty, for decades, when the rest of the world basically allows you everything.
> not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians"
The similarity might be stronger than you suspect. Russia abducts and transports Ukrainian children to controlled territories [0], and actively encourages its own citizens to relocate to captured Ukrainian areas through economic incentives, subsidized housing, and aggressive long-term repopulation strategies.
Ukraine is my pet war. I really hope we don’t get caught in the genocide-debate tar pit as well.
What’s happening is evil. That’s relatable, both in the problem and potential solutions. Whether it’s genocide under some international convention strikes me as a counterproductive distraction that replaces something horrifying with something boring.
> Firing from schools, hospitals and resendential buildings.
I really don't want to descend into countless counterexamples, but that's how virtually every military or militia wages war, including the IDF. I assume your confusion on this issue may be due to a lack of familiarity with the subject.
Usually never ever has anything to do with malevolence (eg. in an attempt to use the counter strike as a propaganda story). More often, it's just a matter of convenience, logistics, and the realities of operating in populated areas.
If there's one thing that CIA manuals on training militias stressed on, or any military history book in that regard, it's that soldiers need to be fed and supported. Or they'll find ways to meet those needs without you.
Units will use any reinforced or cover position to carry their objective.
Even roofs of civilians apartments, let alone reinforced structures such as hospitals, town halls, schools, etc if they can't use alternatives.
Even antique frontal wars used terrain to their advantage. That's why we wrote rules of engagement, but if the bigger powers themselves abuse them, how can you expect militias that have to carry guerrilla or urban tactics to stand by them?
Well, every choice has a consequence. For Israel the choice was accept rockets fired on Israeli towns on a regular basis(not settlements, btw, just towns within the 1948 UN recognized borders of Israel) or respond.
BTW, The response came after texting the residents, distributing leaflets and annoncening in every way possible that the place is going to be bombed.
BTW (2), For years Israel avoided bombing dense residential areas, despite knowing the origin of those rockets.
There is a severe lack of construction materials in Gaza. My guess is that Hamas has a choice between using what's left for tunnels, or losing the war.
That's a slight mix of cause and effect. There is a shortage of construction material because Hamas uses it not for the wellbeing of the citizens of Gaza, but for the construction of border crossing tunnels into Israel.
Sure, that's Israel's purported reason for all of its blockades. The result, as in most cases in history, is that civilians bear the overwhelming brunt of the impact while the military resistance digs further in, switches to guerilla tactics, and becomes increasingly popular amongst civilians.
Regardless, my original point stands that Hamas do not have the means and resources both to build public shelters for everyone and to continue its military efforts.
That's why I mentioned that it was very shallowly understandable at the beginning. Not after few years of massacre.
Interesting part about your commentary is, that you completely ignored the West bank I mentioned. Place when Israel forces killed hundreds of children with sole reason or colonisation of land belonging to someone else. Or at least I never found any other explanation for behavior at the West Bank.
How do you place millions of people in bomb shelters when your neighbour of a few kms away bombs you any time it wants from fighter jets? Have you not seen the footage of bombs dropped with no warnings in the middle of the streets, on residential buildings, on schools, on hospitals?
Israelis have bomb shelters because have ample warning and an enemy that is barely able to hit anything.
This blaming the victims of your own bombings for not taking shelter- actually accusing them to be responsible for their own deaths and those of their relatives, parents, wives, children, is some of the most revolting and shameless Israeli propaganda.
"Israeli authorities and security forces deliberately targeted Palestinian children, resulting in genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes in Gaza, and war crimes in the occupied West Bank, an independent U.N. inquiry said on Tuesday."
Literally the first paragraph of the article we're commenting.
There's only one honorable response, and it couldn't be simpler: A complete and immediate arms and dual-use technology embargo of Israel, combined with more general sanctions. South Africa should be the model: Just ostracize them as much as possible. Say what you will about Russia, but Israel can never be self-sufficient, and China (justifiably) appears to despise them, so sanctions and embargoes would be substantially more effective in correcting their behavior.
This will never happen, and we know why. It's disgusting. The "enlightened," "liberal" west's principles have never been more clearly on display: "Why should we concern ourselves with the wholesale slaughter of innocent children in a pent-up captive civilian population? Not our problem."
I'd argue that Israel is, in fact, behaving worse than South Africa ever did. Apartheid-era South African government was a nightmare, but didn't engage in mass murder (or, uh, "collateral damage") on an Israeli scale. Actually a few orders of magnitude separate them.
That slaughter is worse than discrimination should be obvious. If you discriminate against somebody you harm their dignity and you narrow their future possibilities; if you murder somebody you rob them of everything, including their dignity and every possible future.
I'd also argue, and I think that this should be perfectly self-evident, that however a group may have suffered in the past, it does not give them a moral right to impose suffering on others in the present. No such moral right can possibly exist.
Isn't "whoever saves one life saves the world entire" supposed to be a Jewish moral teaching? How can this be reconciled with a profound indifference to civilian casualties in captive populations?
South African here. There is a vast gap between what the elite believe and what the world perceives of South Africa, and what South Africans think.
Most South Africans have a very low interest in Israel-Palestine. Anecdotally, in person Palestinian rally struggle to get more than 100 people.
There are plenty of domestic issues which people care about more. For one, there are 20,000-25,000 murders here per year. Relatively the deaths in Gaza are much higher (it is about 25x smaller), but when people march its for the 127,000 murdered here over the last 5 years, not the 70,000 killed in Gaza.
That is the sign of a healthy society.
Unlike many countries in the West that have bought into a billion dollar hate campaign sponsored by Qatar and amplified by strategic rivals like Russia and China.
"AbaThembu King Buyelekhaya Dalindyebo says he has removed Mandla Mandela as the traditional leader of Mvezo in the Eastern Cape."
"[His spokesperson] accused Mandela of being more concerned about the people of Palestine than his own people. "Palestine must give him a place to rule; they make him a chief there. Here in the land of AbaThembu, he is no longer welcome,” he said."
Fair point, I just wonder if the apartheid emerged because of the war or vice versa? Either way, a society that needs perpetual war to justify apartheid feels unsustainable.
This is really sickening - if North Korea or any other less connected country did this, you would quickly see their national (tech) companies being sanctioned by the west. I never understood how a country like Israel, given the history of its own tribe, can themselves become so gruesome and have a hugely state-supported private spy-tech sector that supports the worst autocrates in the world as long as the money flows to them.
I suspect that without American support, they would have to do quite a bit to change their behavior. They probably can't afford the current level of conflict on their own. It would force them to negotiate with their neighbors.
Iran[1] may also have all the pieces for nukes by then[2], hence Bibi's fraught gamble with the decapitation strikes, and present desperation to continue - even escalate - hostilities.
1. Or the UAE, which has shown interest in nuclear tech, perhaps for strictly peaceful purposes
2. I.e. attain nuclear latency, and finally make real what Netanyahu has been warning the world for decades: that Iran is "weeks away from a nuclear bomb"
When there used to be a community of 100k Jews in Iran? In other words more than 90% driven out after the revolution? Prominent Jewish figures and businessmen - most notably Habib Elghanian - were arrested on fabricated charges of espionage and were executed. Community members were forced to closely monitor their actions and maintain a quiet public presence.
Down to 10% in 50 years - and in hiding basically - that's your benchmark for Arab tolerance of Jewish minorities?
How are the Christians doing in the Middle East? The Yezidis? The Baha'is?
The reason middle eastern Muslims hate the Jews so much is simply that they won't bow down. Won't allow their women to be turned into sex slaves with impunity. And have built themselves a successful western country.
First thing coming into mind is the number of companies and individuals blocking Russians in the beginning of the war before any sanctions out of virtue signalling.
I felt that quite badly at the start of that war, multiple accounts closed, including my brokerage account, bank account rejected, and a flood of emails asking me to divulge loads of documentation to get them to consider giving them back to me!
I don't actually live in Russia, if I did, it would be even worse.
Yep, Xero published a blog post outlining their stance on Russia and outlining their sanctions (it was literally less than a handful of accounts for them):
Many many countries got sanctioned into oblivion or color-revolutionized into US-loyalty for far far less (often just for not being aligned with the US).
It is even more sickening and outrageous if you view it through that lens.
Oct 7th was a border security failure. The appropriate response was reinforcing the border and ensuring that gazans cant escape. Letting the gazans out was one of the biggest security blunders of the 21st century. Israel knew the government of gaza wants israel wiped off the map, this stuff isnt a surprise or anything. Israel absolutely had the capability of keeping the gazans in, they blew it. I see that this is close to victim blaming, but the thing is that both sides are victims here, all the arguments involve victim blaming. Israel already tried occupying gaza, they knew it doesnt work and would just make things worse.
Arguments can certainly be made about the hostages, but I think its clear that the gazan war was not really about the hostages.
> On the 7th Oct, Gazans took selfies in front of a tank on the border where you can see that the gun still had its cap on. The soldiers, confronted with a mob dressed as civilians, did not open fire, and were subsequently dragged out and killed.
They were understaffed.
Look, Im not some expert on border control so Im not going to claim I know what the cure here is. I do know that israel is a wealthy country with mandatory military service though. They had the manpower to staff the wall with guards with some sort of non lethal crowd control. Gaza is a prison camp, prisons never seem to throw up their hands and claim its impossible to keep the prisoners in. I understand the Israelis need to keep the gazans locked up. The israelis shouldve understood that people dont like being locked up though and they shouldve prepared better for attempted jail breaks.
The only way to ensure this is by not letting them leave, so yes, they do need to lock them up to ensure their security.
Egypt has no interest in taking gaza which is why Israel feels the need to keep them locked up. The gazans are indigenous to israel which is why they are israels responsibility until someone else takes them. Obviously it would be nice for israel if the prisoners never tried to break out but that isnt a realistic outcome, and Israel knows it. If youre going to set up a prison camp you need to heavily guard the border or bad things will happen. Im not saying the initial invasion afterwards is immoral, it was just a bad decision that wouldnt have been needed if the israelis just protected the border. It was a bad decision because it predictably led to numerous atrocities which was exactly what hamas wanted. Israel is without a doubt less safe now then they were on oct 6 when they were close to opening diplomatic relations with all the middle east countries other than iran.
All of the gazans are descendants of refugees from the nakba. Its not like anyone drew a shape, the israelis suggested the palestinians go somewhere else so they did. But no other country let them in so now israel is forced to deal with the fallout. Obviously if someone from jordan showed up thats not israels problem, but when israel refuses to let the refugees they are responsible for have their own state they remain responsible for the refugees.
Anybody surprised at this point? In any case, this is the same UN that has accepted israel, and israel lobbied US vetoes to Palestine entry into the UN again and again, even then a broad majority of the world have voted in favor of granting membership, does any of what they do or pretend to represent matters anymore?
At this point, leaders should create a new security council excluding the permanent SC members, set rules around voting on issues where every country has an equal voice, create enforcement frameworks and then invite the SC members with equal footing.
The proposed reforms led by the likes of Brazil, Germany and India are not getting a lot of traction. Maybe if they included everyone else they'd have a better chance.
“Systematic deliberate targeting of children as policy”.
I don’t see why this is controversial.
Pro-Palestine people have seen the overwhelming field reports that prove this and Pro-Israel people actually are in favor of targeting these kids because they might grow resentful of Israel and join Hamas.
See also this This American Life episode, where doctors visiting Gaza saw a disturbing number of children with direct gunshot wounds to the head and chest: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/859/transcript
Had seen a testimony of an European doctor coming from Gaza saying that each week or month the hospitals where flooded with young males coming from the humanitarian food queues with a different gunshoot type. There was the month of the knees, the month of head gunshoots, and the month of the young men flooding the hospitals with their testicles blown off, all because they wanted to pick some food for their families.
Please don't offend our intelligence. Bullets have makers.
As I said, I forced myself to read until the end. If you do the same, you'll notice the part about the small titanium fragments lodged on the heads and legs of mutilated toddlers. Fragments that came from "made in USA" grenades. I'm pretty sure that US government is not selling this weapons to Hamas.
What Israel has done and keeps doing is beyond evil, but if they think that are smarter than the war criminologists of the planet; If they think that can exit unscathed from this in the end with just a few Jedi mind tricks, they are not just evil, but also extremely dumb and suicidal
The excuse will be that these are just casualties of war and we'll shrug it off and move on, whereas the imaginary beheaded babies from October 7 are unforgivable and excuse any action on Israel's behalf.
Boycott. Divestment. Sanctions. Use any legal means to stop funding this genocide and make Israel's leadership accountable. We all love our comfy white collar jobs and would rather not rock the boat, but not doing the little we can do (e.g. stop using Israeli suppliers and services) makes us supporters.
I was trying to pay attention to the actual claim and I got:
1. Children died during the ceasefire
2. Israel is using larger bomb payloads than it should (according to who?) in civilian areas
3. Higher percentage of child deaths than in earlier conflicts
Still, for me, doesn't add up to "Israel deliberately targetted gaza children" - is the claim that this is systemic? Or rampant? Or just by some individuals? And how do we know?
The European Press Prize this year went to "What the wounds are telling us", an investigation into the wounds of Palestinian dead children. I recommend you read it.
I'm digging into this a bit. Looks like the 114 figure (certainly a conservative number) occurred early in the conflict, in the period of late Oct 2023 until March 2024 - in the same time the hamas health ministry reported ~25000 casualties; the deliberately targeted children account for ~0.4% of all the casualties, and ~1.5% of all child casualties. Enough to say "Israel is deliberately targeting"?
After 20.000 children assasinated, with the necessary support and complicity of Biden and Trump governments, yes. Is more than enough.
I have to force myself to read that link until the end. And it says what everybody in Europe has been saying for years, but Israel people still refuses to see.
We need to develop technology able to register this events even from a big distance. Even if the phones are forbbiden. And the war criminals must be judged and jailed, as they are not clearly part of the humanity anymore. A drone able to snatch and remove snippers alive if they are killing children is required.
Tragic as it is, 20,000 children can be lost even in a justified war. It looks like historically, retaliatory wars are initially especially aggressive, lethal and indiscriminate (likely due in part to emotional soldiers who desire to punish whoever they are retaliating against). Is Israel conducting a war here that aligns with the historical trend?
The claim in report is that Israel deliberately targeted newborn delivery hospitals and similar. I don't think they have proof of "deliberately", I assume hamas people could use those hospitals as potentially safe zones for gathering, weapons stashes, etc.
It's pretty clear Israel systematically kills Palestinian children to those paying attention. According to a public statement by the United Nations, Gaza has the highest number of child amputees per capita in the world. At least 21,289 children have been killed. They starve the population, drive them out of their homes. (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...) This is the modus operandi of the Zionist belief system. It is a colonial settler ideology and they have to eradicate the natives, much like American settlers killed the native people and destroyed their way of life until they could keep them in tiny """sovereign nations""" where they would be crushed if they every truly tried to display any real sense of sovereignty. To be sovereign is to have a government with a monopoly on violence, the "reservations" are occupied.
I'm trying to see the argument for "Israel deliberately targets children", closest thing I got was "Israel has made lots of children into amputees" - can you provide more info?
I think there's an ethical difference between "we need to wage war on a densely populated area", and "we need to wage war on a densely populated area, let's make sure to harm the vulnerable people we encounter there". This is what I'm trying to differentiate between.
We won't know without analyzing protocols how Israel picks targets.
Also, harming civilians is the norm in modern world. Russia absolutely deliberately is targeting critical civilian infra in Ukraine (e.g. grid during cold winter).
Were civilians targeted intentionally on 9/11? Or was it just a targeted assassination strike on some bankers? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_July_2024_al-Mawasi_attack) If I am attacked and legally have the right to self defense, but kill the neighbors "in the process of" defending myself because I fired 300 rounds at the attacker. Is that okay? I didn't do it "intentionally". But it is convenient that I hate them.
I gotta be honest, the phrase “colonial settler ideology” gets an instant eye roll and detracts from the rest of your statements. Most nations on the planet are formed of settlers unless you think there were always Russians in Siberia, or there were always Anglo-Saxons on Albion.
Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations about "Land Back" or reparations for those affected by these systems, which often lead to nowhere. The distinction is this is happening today.
Even Reuters can not hide this anymore. After years of genocide, UN remembers it, it is something. Now let's see what will be the punishment of this genocide, this is not the first report.
Were are the UN sanctions on Israel? Still none? UN can go f*k themselves then.
Needing so many years to get the courage to say the world genocide, where everybody had seen for years Israel turning little children into little flesh chunks, slowly unfurl in horrid technicolor in world TV, is just another part of the problem. UN is useless.
> Needing so many years to get the courage to say the world genocide, where everybody had seen for years Israel turning little children into little flesh chunks, slowly unfurl in horrid technicolor in world TV, is just another part of the problem. UN is useless.
People really should try to avoid conflating war with genocide, both typically result in some civilian deaths.
The circumstances of little Hind Rajab's death plays on my mind every single day, and haunts me. The fact something as brazen and blatant as that could happen, and the world did nothing.
The Irish president's sister kidnapped and abused.
Assassinating negotiation teams and scientists.
Murders of whole families who dared to speak out to the world.
Running over a teenager with their hands zip-tied behind their backs with Caterpillars®.
The paramedic massacre in Rafah.
The hundreds of journalists. The tens of thousands of children. The doctors raped to death.
The people who never get mentioned in these lists of atrocities, buried in mass graves with their children, hands tied.
The people dying from n-order effects, slowly, painfully, barely noticed or counted.
...
And little/no sanctions from our civilized Western democracies. (Except on the people calling it out, who can't use a credit card or bank any more, or even receive donations.)
We are far worse than useless. The stain is set for all time.
A reminder for any Americans reading this: 98.15% of 2024 voters chose a Presidential candidate that supported the above.
True. I have a friend in Southern Lebanon who I met a few years ago at a conference. Our group chat is eerie - we haven't heard from him in over two months. We just don't know how he is, and it's sickening.
Yemen and Sudan aren't doing this with our support, and while wagging their finger at us to better support them in their crimes against humanity.
Calling that out at all isn't "only criticizing Israel". That framing suggests wanting the crimes to continue. In that case, from what position would you think you could wag your finger from?
It's also not anti-Israel to be pro-human-rights and pro-accountability. Just like it's not anti-American to be against the Trump admin, or anti-China to be against the CCP, and so on.
The above really aren't complex things, they're not even the baseline, they're part of the baseline. You absolutely have to be this tall to ride, and if you aren't, your insults of others, such as calling them racists, are likewise worthless. If you just have the same 3 lines regardless of input, you're being an NPC, some persistent flavor animation in the background, and we can just turn down the render distance for those to 0. Feel free to actually log in and participate anytime.
Wrong again. There are multiple countries involved in the war in Sudan. Saudi Arabia is one of them - the West's closest ally in the Middle East. We supply Saudi Arabia with nearly all its weapons and intel, which they pass it on to their side in Sudan.
Oh, I didn't know that actually...
Have you actually done any reading? Been to the region?
It's not just the raw suffering but also the sense of systematic oppression between groups that triggers people. Yemen or Sudan don't get nearly enough attention because most people find those conflicts harder to understand in terms of "good and evil" than the Israel-Palestine conflict.
We are bombarded by the suffering because it suits the left self hate narrative and Hamas operatives are always on hand with expensive photography equipment.
Palestinian suffering is literally part of their strategy to turn the kids in America against Israel. It's a dumb strategy, but Palestinian society has chosen dumb strategies for nearly a hundred years now.
Antizionists will sacrifice an infinite number of Palestinians to its hateful fantasy of destroying Israel.
Is the killing of five-year-old Hind Rajab, alongside six of her family members, and two paramedics who came to rescue her, also a reach? Please, help me draw the line.
I need to push down emotions to put it this way, but I think it's also important to consider that tragedies and losses of life such as hind rajab are possible even in a justified war.
Israel's targeting of neonatal and maternity care centres during its war on Gaza directly endangered Palestinians' reproductive future and the survival of newborns – driving a rise in miscarriages, birth defects, and lasting vulnerabilities.
Israel's aid blockade in Gaza last year also took a severe toll on Palestinian children, causing starvation-related deaths and a rise in disease as immunisation rates fell.
Palestinian children have been arrested and subjected to torture in Israeli prisons and other severe forms of mistreatment, including sexual abuse.
Israeli forces have destroyed orphanages and education facilities in the occupied West Bank, which has affected Palestinian children's cognitive, social and emotional care and development.
Individual events need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, but surely you would agree that if your combat enemy is hiding amidst children it is they who have deliberately chosen for those children to become collateral damage?
If you look at the bottom of the page, you’ll find guidelines that mention which content is welcomed: “Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.”
That said, I find this particularly of interest here given the growing attention to the use of algorithms and AI (including generative AI) for surveillance and targeting of palestinians.
Very well, you are of cause correct and come to think of it that guideline makes total sense, there is more to hacking than technology. Hence my comment was unfortunate a bit misguided.
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
I unfortunately agree with you, selfishly. This used to be the forum where one could mostly find interesting technology and ideas and discuss them with intelligent people. An escape from the standard online hell and it’s people who must truly enjoy conflict - which my body instead interprets as anxiety and terror.
But now it’s here, and so are they. It’s probably the same people. It’s probably me.
Many of the companies in that list have essentially zero link to the events in Gaza. E.g. a Swiss company that supplies coal to Israel is considered complicit in genocide. Because Israelis having electricity means complicity in genocide, apparently. Hyundai is included because it sells vehicles to Israel, allegedly those machines were used to destroy Palestinian building but the cited source doesn't mention Hyundai: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5923-...
Might as well have titled the page "companies that do business with Israel".
Arguably, incidental civilian deaths are morally permissible if they constitute the only effective way to achieve reasonable military objectives. In this specific case, the objective is something like "disable Hamas' capacity to attack Israel". It's dubious whether this is achievable with the methods Israel has used so far. By most accounts Hamas is just as large as ever, is reasserting control over Gaza, and is likely to be rebuilding its stockpile.
> In October 2025, the ICJ issued an advisory opinion [wikidata] finding that Israel's claims that UNRWA had been infiltrated by Hamas were unsubstantiated. The advisory opinion also said that Israel's decision to end cooperation with UNRWA and restrict humanitarian aid to Gaza breached its obligations under the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter. It furthermore found that Israel's Gaza Humanitarian Foundation was not an adequate substitute, noting that more than 2,100 Palestinians had been killed near its distribution points and that conditions in Gaza had deteriorated to the point that international experts declared a famine in some areas in August. The ICJ further held that the mass transfer or deportation of civilians within occupied territory is prohibited, citing Israeli measures that forced large populations into overcrowded areas and severely restricted UN access. It also ruled that the two Knesset laws ending cooperation with UNRWA in the occupied territories were unlawful, noting that 360 UNRWA staff had been killed during the conflict. The court concluded that Israel, as an occupying power, had unlawfully impeded aid delivery, used starvation as a method of warfare, and failed to respect the immunities of UN personnel and premises.
"The International Court of Justice (ICJ; French: Cour internationale de justice, CIJ), or colloquially the World Court, is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations (UN)"
"The Court is composed of a panel of 15 judges elected by the UN General Assembly and Security Council for nine-year terms"
Literally, from the first few paragraphs of wikipedia.
People don't read these days.
If the UN general assembly (mostly anti israel) selects the judges how is it "structurally independent of the UN"?
I've often heard defenders of Israel crap on the UN General Assembly like it's some woke antifa type organization, but it's one representative per country, chosen by the country's government. If almost every country in the world is constantly officially condemning you, perhaps they are not the problem.
Well, given that between 2015 and 2024 alone, the General Assembly adopted 154 resolutions against Israel. That's more than Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Russia, China *combined*, I find it a bit ... unfair, wouldn't you say?
More than 14,500 children were killed by Israel in that period.
14,500 / 154 = more than 94 children per resolution. Seems fair.
How many children did "Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Russia, China combined" kill in this period, I hear you whatabout: Highest reasonable estimates are ~5,000–10,000 children.
... So, no. I don't think it's unfair.
Now let's compare how many sanctions have been inflicted on each country above. If you measure by number of sanctioned individuals/entities, a rough ranking would be:
1: Russia.
2: Iran.
3: North Korea.
4: Sudan.
5: China.
6: Israel.
... So if you're trying to hint that the whole world is only against genocide because they're antisemitic, the facts you're referring to don't really seem to back you up. At all.
Again, children got killed because their school was used as a ground base to fire rockets from. Do you expect Israelis to allow Hamas rockets to fall in Israeli schools? That's not a reasonable expectation.
The choice hamas forces israel to make is cruel and inhuman, that is direct consequence of their radical islamic belief of martirdom. They do not see death like the same way as the west. To them (and I'm not talking about all palestinians, for sure, only Hamas senior leadership which governs Gaza) dead children is a weapon against Israel. In light of this, all their actions finally make sense:
1. No civil defenses, or shelters - just tunnels.
2. Firing from schools and hospitals, as well as hiding weapons and ammo in those places.
3. Arming and sending children to fight
That's the most reasonable explanation (which many palestinian extremists have even voiced themselves)
> children got killed because their school was used as a ground base to fire rockets from.
I don't really know how to talk to people who think killing children - by the tens of thousands - is ever justified, but maybe this will help you: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t-mMt3c3ngQ
Well, I presume you never had to make the choice between just living with rocket barrages as a daily routine, this is something that’s incredibly hard to fathom. For years and years.
Golda Meir once said that peace between Israel and the Palestinians will come once the Palestinians will love their children more than they hate the Jews.
Did you encounter any mistranslation here specifically? it's pretty easy to translate the video with Gemini or a different AI tool. I did it - I ran it through ElevenLabs transcription and GPT5.5 based translation of the transcript, this is what I got:
00:00:16,479 --> 00:00:34,520 [Speaker 0]
And I pray in every prayer — every prayer, every prayer — that I, your father, your sisters, girls and boys, all of you, will be martyrs for the sake of God. When death comes to us, may our whole family be martyrs for the sake of God. And of course, I am proud of Muhammad. I am proud, praise be to God. I mean, praise be to God, praise be to God, all my children are religious and good.
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:34,919 [Speaker 1]
God has willed it / God bless.
00:00:34,919 --> 00:00:49,959 [Speaker 0]
And I, praise be to God — by God, by God — my children and my grandchildren, and all of their family, if all of them were martyred for the sake of God, I would be happy. I mean, praise be to God, I love this path. I mean, I feel that this path is salvation.
Clearly, there's no mistranslation here, the intention is very clear.
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the Middle East conflict does not align people according to tribal, religious, and political groupings, as well as international alliances.
Given that Jews are 0.2% of the world’s population, in contrast to a very large population of people openly biased against Israel, it’s no surprise that when you take a global popular vote that Jews will lose. The UN is not a neutral institution.
The typical vote is like 142-6. The Israeli claim is that almost the entire world are a bunch of anti-Semites that hate them for who they are. Perhaps it's not who they are but what they are doing.
There are roughly 50 to 57 countries where Muslims make up the majority of the population. Add the countries that are heavily dependent on them, and you end up with a game that is often decided before a single ballot is cast.
> Not a single country in the world opened its doors to Jewish refugees during the Holocaust.
Not one except USA.
And Sweden, Dominican Republic, Denmark, France, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Poland, Bolivia, Spain, the Soviets and all the other countries that allowed safe crossing. Even Italy hid Jews... so what history books do you studied?.
It’s still pretty surprising that a country so armed to the teeth with ground troops and missile defense systems would have let Oct 7 happen for as long as it did, and with so many people dying. I agree that it was wrong of Israel to do that.
The report states they are not bombing military targets, so you can't explain the numbers away just by saying Hamas may recruit children.
> Israeli forces continued to use high-payload munitions and weapons with wide-area effects in densely populated residential areas despite mounting child casualties, the commission said.
Ok, first: The author sits on the board of HonestReporting and writes for NGO Monitor, UN Watch, and the Henry Jackson Society. These are pro-Israel media-monitoring and advocacy organisations.
It paints Hamas's Ministry of Health as a propaganda machine incapable of an honest number (sure) while Israeli military estimates (the 25,000 combatant figure, al-Ahli) are accepted at face value -- seriously? The IDF has been proven to lie numerous times.
Also, the article still relies on the MoH's numbers when it's convenient to the point it's trying to make.
The Gaza Mortality Survey, published in The Lancet Global Health in early 2026, run by Michael Spagat who's a war-mortality specialist (Kosovo, Iraq), with a long record of debunking inflated war-death claims, estimated 75,200 violent deaths between Oct 7, 2023 and Jan 5, 2025, which is around 25,000 more than the official Gaza Ministry of Health figure for that period.
The Lancet survey found that women, children, and older people comprised 56.2% of violent deaths. An OHCHR analysis separately found that 70% of those killed in residential buildings were women and children.
Let's see, what else: A ratio of 1.5 civilians per combatant means roughly 40% of all deaths are fighters. If 56% of the dead are women, children, and elderly, then every adult male death would have to be a combatant to reach 40% — which is obviously false.
The combatants numbers: The 25k combatants figure is an estimate from IDF statements while it dismisses the 8.9k figure (militants the IDF actually identified) as absurd. "Let's make up a number and call the only real documented count" -- and whether it itself is real or not is debatable.
Then lies about natural deaths: Yes, there were about 6.3k deaths in Gaza before the genocide started, however it cherry-picks this subtraction while ignoring the corresponding addition. the same surveys that quantify baseline deathhs also find thousands of excess non-violent deaths caused by genocide. The lancet survey has 8.5k excess deaths. The 3.3k confirmed deaths the article cites are below the 6k baseline. Natural deaths are undercounted. Not inflating it.
Hamas kiling Gazans: Sure, but thousands? It's overblowing numbers for the al-Ahli hospital case and then extrapolating a bunch of bs as a result.
There is a genocide going on. We've seen the footage. We have the testimony about the horrors from both IDF soldiers and Palestinians. Why are we disputing numbers like holocaust deniers?
A few rebutals:
> Yes the author is pro-Israel. I would assume the author the Reuters article is anti-Israel. This doesn't automatically disqualify either account.
> The issue is with the MoH is the breakdown of the numbers, not the overall number. No contradiction.
> He provides an alternative to Lancet. His numbers do not follow Lancet, so mixing his calculations with Lancet's is disingenuous.
> Hamas said they had 40k trained fighters which was about 2% of the population. They also recruited heavily throughout the war. Israel has a standing army of 170,000. The area is an active war zone. These numbers are feasible.
> The 8900 is fighters identified by Israel by name. This is an extremely high standard you are applying to identify fighters overall. For example in Ukraine, this standard would identify most of the 200,00 Russians they have claimed to kill to be civilians.
> Your logic is inconsistent. According to you over a 2 year period Israel couldn't kill tens of thousands of fighters in a large active military all over Gaza but could kill tens of thousands of exposed and trapped civilians in the crossfire but Hamas couldn't have harmed a few thousand of those same civilians.
> No genocide.
> This is not disputing numbers. It's disputing the nature of the conflict.
The USA won't do anything about it because the USA is also guilty of heinous war crimes, crimes against humanity and massive violations of human rights at scale - in fact, it is the worst criminal on the world stage when it comes to un-prosecuted war crimes... so Israel facing justice will only mean that the USA will face the same justice, and we all know that there is nothing more heinous in all the world to an American than to be embarrassed by their state facing justice at the hands of any other international entity.
But the terrible tragedy is that this situation is not going to resolve until these countries actually prosecute their war criminals, who have been getting away with it in the current context for 20+ years. Which means the only ones with any power to do anything about the USA/Israels' war criminals, are the citizens of those countries themselves - which is why the situation is just so dire.
Until there is a real appetite for prosecuting ones own war criminals instead of bleating like sheep for the blood of perceived enemies of other states, there will not be the moral stance/altitude required for Americans to do anything effective about the war crimes of any other nation.
Until Americans prosecute their own war criminals they can do nothing effective about Israels', Russias', Ukraines' war criminals, either ...
> Between October 7, 2023 and October 7, 2025, at least 20,179 children were killed, around 30% of the overall death toll.
> A rebuttal shared by Israel's mission in Geneva said Israel "consistently strives to minimize harm to children even in situations of conflict".
Well, it is certainly no question that Israel is killing children en masse.
Israeli officials are saying “but we are trying to minimize”. Well, these attempts clearly failed given 20,179 fatal cases, and let’s also consider all physically injured and traumatized children.
Still, as of today, Israel is killing a child per day in Gaza [1].
So either it is complete incompetence of Israels warfare methods, or it is done on purpose. No matter how you try to frame it, package it: this is not right and Israel should be sanctioned internationally.
Fundamentalists rule this nation. Sanction them, no weapon exports and their actions are not aligned with their official rhetoric.
Also, October 7, October 7, October 7. Yes, horrible, but at what point does the consensus become that October 7 starts to look like a small event in light of the death toll on the other side?
Spoiler: we should be way beyond that. Over 97% of all total casualties are on the Palestinian side [2].
Sanction Israel.
[1] https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/geneva-palais-briefing... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war
> Yes, horrible, but at what point does the consensus become that October 7 starts to look like a small event in light of the death toll on the other side
At the point when other side (free palestine and alike) start acknowledging it. Two wrongs don't make something right.
Start with teaching Palestine supporters that hamas is not the answer. And maybe, maybe after that people start seeing Palestine people as victims. Without it, most people will continue supporting Israel, not because they think that it does no wrong. But in comparison with hamas and their supporters Israel is lesser evil.
To go back a long long while, the Israeli state was also founded by religious paramilitary organizations. Irgun et al.
Hamas IS the only organization to survive Israeli assasinations & internal conflict. Why is it there are no secular Palestinian groups left?
IMO Hamas / Netanyahu & the Kahanists are both the worst possible leadership on both sides.
The Kahanists literally murdered the Israeli prime minister for shaking hands w Arafat.
> most people will continue supporting Israel
Your perspective is divorced from reality.
Across the 36 countries, a median of 67% of adults have an unfavorable view of Israel, while 25% have a favorable view [1].
[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/06/04/most-peop...
In what world is 20,179 dead children the lesser of two evils?
The pro-israel argument is that hamas are almost entirely to blame for those numbers (as they use civilian infrastructure for war purposes)
Almost all Israelis are IDF members, members of various intelligence and defense companies. If we plotted a map of a suitable attack radius around all valid combat targets in Israel, almost the entirety of their "civilian" regions would be covered.
> maybe after that people start seeing Palestine people as victims. Without it, most people will continue supporting Israel
Most of the world sees Palestinians as the victims and Zionists are very much the global minority. Hamas made that a reality, so I think they are the answer. I certainly support their resistance to Zionism, just like the Haitian slave revolt.
Thank you for stating the case better than I ever could.
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Maybe to spark curious conversation, when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? It does seem like UN is unable to really make a dent here.
We kinda went through this with South Africa.
The only thing saving Israel is the US protection and the nukes. US protection can change. Nukes are harder.
South Africa successfully utilized "strategic ambiguity". They never explicitly acknowledged they had the weapons, while making sure world leaders knew they were a credible threat.
during South Africa's border wars (specifically against the Cubans in Angola), there were internal discussions about deploying tactical nuclear weapons. Because world leaders viewed that threat as entirely credible, it gave South Africa massive leverage.
Feels like world leaders view modern Israeli threats through the exact same lens and i'd agree given recent covert operations like the beeper bombings hence this UN posture.
Could we replicate the SA situation? probably not but maybe partially?
When the Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended, South Africa’s strategic leverage evaporated overnight. The US and UK no longer had a reason to shield them from crippling global economic sanctions.
Feels like we are watching this in real time with Israel post Iran war. If the US entirely removed its diplomatic shield and allowed full global economic isolation to set in, the economic cost of maintaining a pariah state might eventually outweigh the perceived security benefit of the weapons. ('might' doing a lot of heavy lifting there)
Also SA was also motivated by fear of the nukes getting in the hands of the incoming leftist government, Israel does not have that fear.
Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal on earth, and we have no issue sanctioning them excessively.
Not sure if it used to be the case with South Africa too, but I'm baffled how much ideological support Israel still has, in various population groups. There are at least two religious groups who seem to view it as integral part of a divine plan that trumps all other considerations. ("mainstream" Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians)
Then there various secular narratives around the Jewish homeland, the rebirth (and Germany's redemption) after the Holocaust etc.
For western politicians, it seems far easier to chime in to the dehumanization of Palestinians and either paint the daily suffering there as "tragic but necessary", make fun of it or dismiss it completely - than to object to those stories.
This seems to work on a different layer than geopolitics, so I have doubts that a shift in geopolitics alone would change this. (I may be wrong)
Though maybe the changed perception of Israel after the Gaza war might change it.
Just wanted to recommend the film, Ajami (2009) [1] that touches on the rather hair-trigger issues in the region. Pretty intense film that does, I think, a good job of showing all sides.
[1] https://youtu.be/9VFRMkUlf9g
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Yes, and that seems to be the rationale of western politicians as well, essentially, "we have to protect Israel to protect the Jewish people, without it, the Holocaust would risk repeating"
That makes sense as a "subjective experience" (if there is something like the subjective experience of a people), but it fails the reality check for me.
Yes, Israel is the center of Jewish life today (New York coming next apparently), but I can't really believe that it genuinely is the safest place for Jews in the world today - not after the last years. Jews in the US or Europe were not at risk of being murdered by Hamas, hit by a missile from Iran or get conscripted in a war. Jews in Israel were.
> Most want peace but believe their Arab enemies do not.
Well, everyone wants peace in the "I won" sense. I don't see that most Israeli Jews want peace in the sense of living together peacefully with their neighbors.
(Neither do their neighbors, true - which is why I fault Israelis less here than the western allies who should apply force to both sides to deescalate and reconcile if they really wanted to end the conflict, but who instead only apply pressure to one side and unquestionably support the other side)
> Neither do their neighbors, true
Their neighbours don't really have an option though. Stopping all resistance will not stop the settlers from harassing and chasing away the natives, and it will not force Israel to respect any border (which they took care of not even declaring). If anything, Palestinian resistance is functional to the progress of the occupation, so, if things get too quiet, a couple of killings or demolished homes keep the situation dynamic enough.
Unless you're counting on the moral authority of the Western nations that stayed silent or even financed and armed Israel while it was starving a population under blockade and bombings, murdering tens of thousands of civilians, killing hundreds of journalists, bombing hospitals and universities. Maybe they would say something if Israel killed and conquered a population that absolutely refuses to react. What do you think?
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Israel has conscription laws that require all Jews participate in the IDF. It's one of the only places on Earth where a pacifist Jew would be forcibly made to participate in lethal conflict.
There are thousands of other, safer places that a Jew (or anyone, for that matter) could choose to live. As evidenced by the lack of Iron Dome in New Jersey.
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> Well I tried but you are extremely ignorant, and my comment got flagged anyway.
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.
Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> There are hardly any Jews in Europe after the Holocaust. They're a rounding error. The communities are small and vulnerable. The largest community in France is under strain with antisemitism and is moving to Israel. The 2nd largest in the UK is not far behind.
This honestly makes no sense for me. I live in Europe (Germany) and the discussion about antisemitism and Jewish life is front-and-center here. There are also several synagogues in my city. No one, not even the pro-Palestinian protesters wants them to go away - on the contrary, most protesters (from the left!) go out of their way to stress that their protest against the state of Israel is not hate against the Jewish people. In fact, lots of protesters are Jews themselves.
Who keeps conflating the two things and blurring the boundaries in public discussion are pro-Israel orgs.
Unfortunately, you're right that real antisemitism is rising. However all European states are taking a stance against that.
> There have been repeated attempts at peace...
You forgot the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.
There are ~100,000 German Jews, from a pre-WW2 population of 560,000 in a modern population of 83.6 million, 0.1%.
Yes, did forget that one. Reinstatement of the prohibition to Judaism's holy sites, expulsion of hundred thousands of Israelis from the West Bank, and unlimited Arab immigration to the Jewish state. But it was a peace plan.
Edit: I'm still in shock you argued that 100,000 people in a population of 83.6 million is a lot - front and centre - but hand waved the forced relocation 500,000 people in a population of 10 million in a much smaller country as just the cost of peace.
No one in Germany (except neo nazis) would object to more Jews settling here.
> but hand waved the forced relocation 500,000 people in a population of 10 million in a much smaller country as just the cost of peace.
The West Bank is not part of Israel. And evidently the Israelis expect the same of 7 million Palestinians (if they aren't trying to annihilate them outright - see OP link of this thread).
> But it was a peace plan.
It still is. It was offered again several times, last time I believe by Qatar during the Gaza war.
> It is also where Jews are most protected.
Israel is without a doubt, the most dangerous place for Jews in the world. Not only is the entire country built on ethnically cleansed land (and thus Zionists have the indigenous population correctly trying to get them off the land), Israel has also attacked almost every country in the region and regularly receives missile attacks.
You are missing the very massive religious and ideological groups who are on the other side and see in the destruction of Israel a divine plan or a fulfilment of some secular ideal.
This blinkered view will reasonably leave you baffled and with a distorted world model, and a perception that people are stupid when they are actually seeing the bigger picture.
No question those exist, but this ignores basic human psychology: If my whole family was wiped out in an airstrike, and then I have a whole population saying "yup, that's exactly how things should be!", of course I would start to hate them.
I don’t think you understood. You pointed out support from parts of two Abrahamic faiths for Israel, while ignoring the other major Abrahamic faith, whose opposition to Israel is older and in much greater numbers and zealotry than the evangelical one is for Israel, and has existed long before Israel even had an air force.
They are not family and often not even the same race. It’s a religious thing, but you only find two of the three religious alignments irrational, when these two are, at least in part, just reacting in response to the other.
It is funny how much hand wringing is done with nuclear weapons. like they are this big line in the sand when really the same result happens with or without them. Gaza looks as wrecked as Hiroshima or Dresden. Doesn't matter it seems in terms of the function. I guess the bigger risk is really the implication vs the action. It is like Kayfabe for the political class.
I know traditional munitions aren’t exactly “clean” but isn’t nuclear fallout still a unique concern?
No one in power meaningfully cares about environmental destruction.
They do meaningfully care about the significant radiation that is likely to drift into their own citizens. Israel is not a large country.
Your analysis on nuclear use doesn't consider the lingering poisoning of people and land compared to conventional weapons. It's not Keyfabe. You would vastly prefer being attacked with conventional weapons.
I mean they don't care about pollutants currently harming the health of their own citizens not to mention the environmental crisis and climate change making these regions increasingly inhabitable. Why would they care about radiation? It would be easy to sweep under the rug and wash with undercoverage like the climate issues have been.
Might really is doing some heavy lifting here. If the UN turns on Israel and they become sanctioned by the west the most likely outcome is that Israel turns to China. China needs stabilizing forces in the Middle East because of their lack of domestic fossil fuels. They also see similarities between the Gaza situation and Taiwan. The Israelis are fiercely aggressive on security issues. They will not give up on that because of sanctions I think. What US backing is really doing is mostly just making it cheaper for Israel to defend itself so that the Israelis feel less pressure to be aggressive with making buffer zones. Without the US funding the iron dome we would see a real genocide in Gaza.
> when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these
If recent history is any indicator, UN isn't that structure; probably EU / G7 / BRICS & other such blocs are:
How very massive atrocities end: A dataset and typology (2020), https://doi.org/10.1177/0022343319900912The UN is really just meant to prevent World War 3 and nuclear war. It has succeeded in this for the last 70 years. The structure of the UN is basically unanimous consensus between the major world powers with each power getting a veto.
There is no unanimous consensus on this issue at all.
Did it? Because this was also always the argument for the "League of Nations" that came before it. If you read 1930s newspapers that's what they give as a reason for the organization's existence ...
Now after WW2, consensus is that the League of Nations may have outright caused WW2, and certainly contributed more than any other individual factor. The League of Nations was the embodiment of the treaty of Versailles. As if that wasn't bad enough, the League of Nations was also the league of nations that stopped most reactions against Hitler immediately before the war.
I'm not even going to bother drawing the obvious parallel with how the UN is treating nuclear powers, and people defending themselves against attacks by a nuclear (or trying-to-be-nuclear) power.
It did because world war 3 hasn’t happened and it’s been about 80 years vs the short time between world war 2 and world war 1.
I'll just ask the forbidden question: and did WW3 not happen because of the UN ... or because of MAD?
(VERY importantly, combined with a fundamental agreement on the value of human life, at least to some extent, between the 2 dominant powers Russia and the US and now China)
Not saying that a meeting room where nuclear powers have permanent presence isn't useful. But to say it is responsible for peace somehow is just crazy.
If the latest Gaza war taught us anything, is that UN is powerless. And, unfortunately, it is the highest entity that could apply leverage here, so... Not much we can do. In the long term I hope other nations realize they are very vulnerable and begin to invest more in defense, but that escalation can have other downsides.
> highest entity that could apply leverage
What is the lowest entity that can apply leverage? Regardless of what US or UN does or doesn't, you can start boycotting today.
Not completely true, if you're in the US there are laws to punish boycott of Israel.
Where are you required to declare your purchases?
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"Every attack has to end with occupation, destruction and expulsion." - David Ben-Gurion.
Pretty sure he died well before Oct 7.
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Actually it was the Zionists that worked with the Nazis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
While we're posting Wikipedia links about Nazi collaboration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
I'd like to add, dragging in Hitler because none of WW2 can be explained without him, and the parent poster posted details about the conflict that immediately preceded the independence of the state of Israel. Right before that, WW2 happened and so what happened in the 2 cannot be seen separate from each other.
Hence both sides' behavior during WW2 should be seen as part of the context of what David Ben-Gurion was doing, and Palestinians ... chose a side, let's put it that way.
You purposely trying to claim Hussaini was 'the pope' of Muslims as though he was a central figure of authority that spoke for Muslims/Palestinians just shows how biased you are - not surprising, given your constant bias on this topic on many other posts.
A cursory study on Islam will show you that Islam doesn't have a central figure of authority like the Pope. Therefore what Hussaini did, was him as an individual, and not a decision that can be attributed to all Muslims/Palestinians.
So the fact remains that Zionists as a group collaborated with the Nazis. Hussainin acted as an individual.
This post is genocide apologia disguised as a question of curiosity. It does not belong in a tech forum.
It has taught us the the UN is completely corrupted by antizionist hate. The UN Human Rights Council passed 68 resolutions against Israel in its first decade (2006–2016) — more than the other 67 resolutions against the rest of the world combined, and three times more than any other single country. Meanwhile, 48 countries with serious human rights abuses received zero condemnatory resolutions, including China, Russia, Cuba, Yemen, and Zimbabwe. Countries that did receive resolutions included Syria (20), Myanmar (11), North Korea (9), Belarus (6), Iran (6), and Eritrea (5). Contrast these basket case countries like North Korea and Iran with Israel's record of liberal democracy, free elections, an independent judiciary, rule of law, protections for speech, religion, minorities, women, and LGBTQ people. Israel aint perfect but please, even antzionist haters can see how ridiculously corrupted the UN it is by antizionst hate.
What kind of answer are you expecting? The only “structure” that matters is power, and the only power that matters is the power to force and destroy. Everything else is derived from that, not the other way round.
Perhaps it was a rhetorical question.
I think this is a good argument why a singular world power is actually a bad thing - because no matter how much it will promote itself as the "good guys" (and of course it will), at the end of the day, it will push through its own interests by that dominance - whereas if power is more evenly distributed, countries might be more willing to agree to common, formalized rules and a "neutral" body to evaluate them.
I think the emergence of nation states with democratic institutions and a strong system of law is actually a hopeful precedent here. Somehow we got from a world of fiefdoms and lords that literally stood above the law to states with checks and balances. (Yes, we're sliding back towards the "fiefdoms" situation right now, but we're still far better than things used to be)
So I'm gonna be a starry-eyed idealist and keep the hope up that we might archive the same on a global level at some point.
History has shown that having a multitude of roughly-equal competing powers results in more per-capita death from war than when there is 1 or two dominant nations. The 1800's and early 1900's were bloody. Post WWII has had less death from war.
Bilateral is stable. Multilateral is not. We have limited evidence nukes change that. Currently, with the implosion of Pax Americana, we’re hearing words a multi-lateral theatre in the Middle East and Asia. Hence the heightened risk of nuclear power in one of those settings. (Europe remains a bilateral theatre.)
True, though post-WWII was not a single power either until the 90s. We've had several decades of Cold War in which there were at least two great powers.
Maybe because of nukes now.
> when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these?
Apply the Apartheid South Africa treatament. Gather the larger number possible of complying members, and apply a coordinated boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign to put pressure in the party engaged in genocide, ethnic cleansing or other abhorrent actions.
Maybe it would help if other countries focused on the immediate problem: rescuing people from a dangerous situation. They should be volunteering to take refugees.
Sadly, it's unlikely because they care more about keeping immigrants out.
Unless you're talking about Zionists returning to their homeland, you're advocating for ethnic cleansing. Palestinians should not be refugees from their own land.
No, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to leave. There are likely people who do want to leave who are trapped there.
The Jews in Israel are already in their homeland. Is your "solution" to ethnically cleanse Jews from the Middle East?
I shouldn't even engage with this since you've been spamming the entire thread with pro-Israel hasbara, but Ashkenazis are native to Europe not the Middle East, and yes they should return to their homeland -- mainly Eastern and Central Europe.
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No, why would I? Also, mods: what's up with all these brand new accounts spamming this thread with pro-Israel propaganda?
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Allowing the Palestinians to return to their stolen homes and not be genocided is not "blood and soil racism". Zionism is, just without the blood part.
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Boycott. Divestment. Sanctions.
Do you plan to do that to any other Countries in the Middle East? Saudi Arabia's human rights record all good for you? Pakistan? China and the Uyghurs - mass internment camps and sterilisation of female prisoners. They get a complete pass? Antizionism is Bondi Beach. Antizionism is a hate movement.
When one is out of real arguments one resorts to mere whataboutism.
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Many countries have strict laws how to deal with genocide, genocide support, and genocide deniers! So just enforce local laws, report supporters of genocide to police.
This doesn't seem to even relate to the question. How am I suppose to out the Israeli government to my local police? Or the miriad entities that support it?
Pro-tip (observe what the UK does closely): Don't call it a genocide and then you don't need to do anything about it.
Indeed. It has to be a particular kind of recognized genocide, and then people just don't agree on what is and isn't a genocide. Turkey is the worst offender there, but it's quite a widespread problem.
And, of course, the problem is people don't agree. Turkey refuses to accept many of it's actions as genocidal (because that's how Turkey was created: when the last islamic state ("the Ottoman empire") got destroyed by Turks (who at that point were the ottoman army), they massacred a LOT of population groups, famously the Armenians but academics name more than a dozen separate genocides: Greeks, Kurds, Azeri, Jews, ...)
Oh and of course they kept doing it. Technically what Turkey did in Cyprus is also a genocide, and they have an active policy of replacing Kurd population groups but that's, if that's even possible, an even worse sore point.
The sad fact is that these genocides happened to gain territory. And, most of that territory, go look at Google Maps. This was mostly deep inland Turkey. And ... Turks obviously don't want it. There's no big cities there, and the more east you go, the less little towns, the less people, the less everything (except on the border). After the genocides what was a European landscape, a village every 5km or so is now empty. Hundreds of kilometers of nothing. Names on a map , with nothing or ruins below them. You don't really need a line to find the Armenian or Georgian border: where the farms begin, the rectangular fields, the villages, you've crossed the Turkish border. In other words: what repopulation the Turks did ... is a failure. And what little remains, mostly near the black sea, is losing young people at an astonishing rate. This is huge empty space, mostly ecologically destroyed land, not productive farmland. Not nature preserves. Nothing.
Also the reverse also doesn't apply. The UN may have trouble with Israeli actions, but where the UN took control to resolve the situation, where the UN took action, most famously southern Lebanon, it has not just failed but it systematically kept getting worse for 50+ years now. Whereas at least for Israel you can say: look at Tel Aviv. Look at Jerusalem. Look at Haifa. They really built something. Where the UN "helped" ... there's nothing.
> Don't call it a genocide and then you don't need to do anything about it
Personally speaking, the is-it-a-genocide debate makes me tune out. It’s hyperlegal, clearly a moving target and selectively prosecuted by each side to the point of, often, absurdity.
If two people want to debate it, fine, but I have no obligation to pay attention. If we want to talk about harms and harm reduction, that feels more concrete and relatable.
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The UN is stuck in 1945. The UNSC needs to throw out the UK, France, and bring in Brazil, India, South Africa and Germany.
And this veto nonsense needs to go away.
And how do you suggest they do that?
By defunding the UN until it falls apart and is rebuilt from scratch. Right now it's a dysfunctional joke. As are most "international" bodies created just after 1945. "Rules based order" when it suits you, "preemptive strikes" when it doesn't.
This is ironic, because the UN itself was already a rebuilt version of the League of Nations.
It's not ironic, it's just a fact.
The only thing which counts is raw power and the means to deliver it. The US just got a lesson in its limits from the Iranian regime.
Countries with natural resources need their own defense against thieves like the US and its vassals. Libya, Iraq, Syria. Oil and no nukes. Fat use the UN was for them.
(Forget about the UN. Take a home owners' association. In due course a clique will take it over and corrupt it.)
Uhhh, irony and facts are not mutually exclusive categories.
And advocating for the dissolution and replacement of the UN due to it being ineffective is deeply ironic, because that's exactly what happened with the League of Nations, which led to the later formation of the UN.
You seem to be in an argumentative mood, but nothing I said is disagreeing with you about the ineffectuality of the UN.
The security council was built around the nuclear powers at the time. I guess there are two ways to look at it:
1: The new nuclear powers should be included, I guess including N Korea, India, and Pakistan. And possibly Israel, if they admit to having them.
2: Rethink the whole thing. Are nukes really as important as everybody thought they were after WWII? If not, what should we look at to decide who to include?
> The security council was built around the nuclear powers at the time.
That's not actually true, the 5 permanent seats on the UNSC were granted in 1945, well before any country aside from the US managed to develop nuclear weapons.
Those 5 countries did all eventually develop nuclear weapons and became nuclear weapon states under the NPT but that happened quite a bit later.
> Are nukes really as important as everybody thought they were after WWII?
Possibly moreso. Nuclear sovereignty is demonstrably above the conventional type. At the end of the day, having a forum where nuclear powers with long-range delivery capability can veto things reduces the risk of them using that capability to veto in the real world.
By the range requirement, Tel Aviv and Pyongyang qualify for UNSC inclusion. New Delhi and Islamabad do not—they will mostly just nuke each other.
I haven’t run the stats on this but it seems to me that countries which have nukes are more likely to invade other countries and then use the nukes as shields to prevent retaliation.
Out of the 9 current nuclear armed countries 5 have invaded another countries this century, and three of the most prolific invaders this century (Israel, USA, and Russia; each with over 3 invasions this century) are all nuclear armed. Out of the 4 countries which haven‘t invaded another country this century, two (India and Pakistan) regularly engage in border skirmishes and bombing campaigns. This leaves China and North Korea as the only two nuclear armed countries (out of 9) which don‘t regularly engage in foreign wars.
By our current experience, the proliferation of nuclear armed states is almost certain to end in a disaster at a previously unseen scale. We should be doing everything in our power to prevent this world of future horrors.
> This leaves China
Not exactly.[0]
> and North Korea
Also not exactly.[1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_invol...
To China I’d add the illegally occupied and annexed Tibetan territory. It’s old news. But it’s weird to ignore.
Not this century. I was going by this list here for what counts as invasions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions_in_the_21st_...
and counted 3 or more invasions as prolific invaders.
But your parent is absolutely correct that China and North Korea also regularly engage in wars, though what counts as war and what counts as skirmishes is up for debate, I would count https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%... as a war (I had just forgotten about it), ditto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Yeonpyeongdo_bombardment
That however just makes my point stronger.
the vetoes are pretty much the sole differentiator between the UN and the league of nations, which failed.
in theory its better if you don't give veto power to great powers because they'll abuse it. in practice it's what keeps the fragile system that prevents WW3 from total collapse, as happened with the league of nations.
I sort of see your logic other than South Africa. Why would you drop two nuclear powers who have some means of force projection for a middling economy and military?
British nukes are a joke, they're controlled by the US. Maybe France can stay.
If not South Africa, who from Africa? Egypt? Nigeria?
The current composition of the UNSC is just ridiculous.
> British nukes are a joke, they're controlled by the US.
While it maybe be true that some of the nukes in the UK(i.e. US B61 gravity bombs) may be under the control of the US, the UK still maintains full control over their submarine launched nukes AFAIU.
Are you trying to be equitable or based on power? If it’s the latter then unfortunately no nation in Africa currently has equivalent power.
Australia would be a better option in either case since they are a continent in of themselves and within spitting distance from being a nuclear power after Biden fucked over the French and beat them to a deal for nuclear subs with Australia.
And re: Britain’s nuclear power being controlled by the US. That’s just the maintenance. They still have the nukes and could easily turn to France as the refurbisher if the US denies them. Might even work out as a conciliatory point for the return to the EU that Burnham is harking about.
The under-18 population in the Gaza strip is roughly 47% (according to PCBS). So if deaths fell randomly across the population, children would be ~47% of the dead. They are ~30%. Also the numbers pipeline again runs through Hamas and there is the fact that the UN Council has passed more condemnatory resolutions on Israel than on any other single state (more than Syria, Myanmar, Yemen etc). I am surprised I don't see more nuance on HN.
Deaths should not fall randomly across the population unless you’re committing war crimes.
Deaths in Gaza are very much not random.
Adult men have the highest casualties which is what would be expected since Hamas militants are most often adult men, it's well documented that Hamas also uses child soldiers to some degree as well.
> Adult men have the highest casualties
And 30% of casualties are children. The two are not mutually exclusive and this is the data point currently under scrutiny.
> it's well documented that Hamas also uses child soldiers to some degree as well.
Cruel Israeli oppression motivates even children to resist them.
Israel then murders said children.
Obviously Hamas must be to blame for Israeli actions.
> Cruel Israeli oppression motivates even children to resist them.
More like Hamas/UNRWA schools teach children to be terrorists.
Why is it that most of the world despises the Israelis, despite them not having gone to Hamas/UNRWA schools?
I mean yea... If youre a child soldier you should expect to be targeted, even if your cause is valiant.
This is common sense. It's astonishing that this needs to be explicitly stated on a site like this.
That's not to say that 30% isn't a crime against humanity. About 1.5 million children were murdered during the Holocaust (1.5M of 6M+ deaths). Israel murders more children than adults when compared to the Nazis.
I agree, however the claim is not war crimes, its genocide. People think that using genocide to simply mean lots of killing and destruction and war makes them morally superior, but genocide entails "intent" and we need a vocabulary to differentiate between the two.
Overall, intent is quite hard to prove. You would need to access internal documents and communications that explicitly direct the military. That's probably not going to happen.
However, from what I have observed, Israeli government officials have often expresses that intent publicly, despite claiming otherwise at the UN.
I am sorry but did you look at pictures of Gaza? Do you not see them actually CONCENTRATING the previously 2 million people there into a gigantic CAMP?
you've had an account for four years, and _this_ is your comment?
If your state finds that it needs to murder children in its defense then it is a failed state and should be refactored by its citizenry, immediately.
Because that which war criminals bring to their victims, they will also - ALWAYS - bring back to their own state.
Prosecute your war criminals. Now!
Perfect speech, I wish hamas and their 70% supporters in gaza could really hear it
If you try very hard, you can understand the reason for bombardment, at least from the BEGINNING. Surely, not the reason for killing these poor children.
But I never came to better conclusion about West Bank annexation that that it is pure imperialism. Basically what russians are trying in Ukraine. I'm still not quite sure what is the purpose, there is really not enough land or it's all just bs?
I wonder if this ends up Flagged.
The west bank annexation happened in response to Jordanian aggression (who were joining with Egypt, with whom Jordan had a mutual defense pact, in a war I would say was ambiguously instigated by Israel/Egypt).
Israel holds the territory with its army, and claims that neither Jordan (nor any country) owned it beforehand, which is a better-founded argument than some people may expect - the west bank was originally, by england, designated as a palestinian - not jordanian - state, arab leadership rejected it (to also reject an israeli state), england withdrew from it, and jordan occupied it, with very very limited international recognition.
It's a pretty crazy history, I hope I got it right, please fact-check me.
> Basically what russians are trying in Ukraine.
Not sure it's the same thing. Russians want political and territorial control in Ukraine, not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians". Israel wants to conquer the whole of Palestine (West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem) to replace the native population with its own. There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design.
> There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design.
About 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab so Palestinian integration into a state with a Jewish majority can work to a degree. The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work(i.e. basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries).
This webpage has a pretty good rundown on the status of Arab Israelis: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/what-know-about-arab-citiz...
An example of implicit discrimination is Israel's ban on family unification with Palestinian spouses: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/511
The linked article is also blaming socioeconomic differences on Israel. But by many metrics Israeli Arabs are doing better than Arabs in other Arab countries. E.g. life expectancy for Israeli Arabs is higher than the Arab average, and higher than Jordan or Egypt.
Similarly for income. While Israeli Arabs on average earn 65% that of Jewish Israelis at $2,400 vs $3,750, the average income in Jordan is $865, and Egypt $235.
But differences in socioeconomic status between groups exist in every country.
The question is whether Israel treats its Arab citizens fairly. Not whether they fare better in Israel than other countries by some metrics.
If you’re going to look at differences between groups, you can’t apply causality and accusation unless you account for other factors.
Now do Jews in Muslim countries. Or in areas under control of the PA.
Imagine you're a parent explaining to a kid why it's not right to punch other kids. Do you accept "but they punch other kids too" as an excuse?
Imagine a parent introducing some special rules to protect a kid that’s being punched, like having them sit at the front, and the bullies start crying why they can’t sit in the front.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine is nothing like a teacher sitting some kids at the front.
You choosing to zoom in and crop the picture shows a level of disingenuity likely due to ulterior bias.
The area under control of the PA is ethnically cleansed from Jews, with an ongoing apartheid where, for example, selling property to Jews is punishable by death, and they have government issued bounties for the killing of Jews.
So Israel has restricted marriage visas from that location. The law still applies to every Israeli equally - Jews also cannot bring in people from that area on a marriage visa.
Banning the eating of fish on Fridays discriminates against Catholics, even if the ban applies to everyone.
The Jewish majority is not an issue. The issue is that Israel is not "the state of the Israelis", it's the Jewish state. You can become an Israeli, you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever.
> The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work
This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones.
> basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries
Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. In many cases it was actually better. The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims.
> you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever.
AFAIU Israel does accept conversions to Judaism so that's not actually accurate.
> This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side.
I'm not justifying actual wrongs, however Israel giving citizenship to all individuals who claim to be Palestinians is unlikely to result in a good outcome.
> In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones.
Just look at Palestinian opinion polling and it will become clear why giving citizenship to all Palestinians would likely result in a civil war.
> Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries.
Jews lived as second class citizens in Muslim majority countries.
> In many cases it was actually better.
That's not really saying much.
> The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims.
Yet there are far more Jews living in Europe today than there are Jews living in MENA countries(excluding Israel). Maybe Europeans largely learned that their past behavior was wrong while those in MENA countries largely did not.
Well russians over the history resettled the native population numerous times, even resettle russians there. But the truth is they mostly want control for whatever reason they made up. Part of their propaganda is thet Ukrainians are basically confused russians so you got the point here.
But I wouldn't be sure about your claim regarding Israel. Even now there are millions of Palestinians with Israel citizenship. I understand the deeply rooted animosity with hamas but I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank. I suppose it have something to do with their extreme religious part of goverment?
You've had a point. Maybe it's more like Native Americans and colonizer type of situation.
Those Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are no longer allowed into Israel. That's my understanding after watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrmE-WiC4eA
You’ve either misunderstood or the youtuber is lying to you.
Third option: it's true.
> I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank
Besides the obvious religious/ ideological motivation, there's also a simple matter of territory: Israel is a small country and the West Bank and Gaza have a lot of value, both for the country as a whole (more space for more people, more natural resources, nobody to share with) as well as commercial value- think developments, real estate, industrial and agricultural areas, seafront properties, etc. Very hard to keep your hands off this bounty, for decades, when the rest of the world basically allows you everything.
> not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians"
That is literally what they are doing in occupied territories
> not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians"
The similarity might be stronger than you suspect. Russia abducts and transports Ukrainian children to controlled territories [0], and actively encourages its own citizens to relocate to captured Ukrainian areas through economic incentives, subsidized housing, and aggressive long-term repopulation strategies.
[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7g5xnvl2eo
[1] https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russias...
[[ Edit - added references in response to flagging ]]
Kidnapping and moving children to new parents also counts as genocide under the convention on genocide.
Ukraine is my pet war. I really hope we don’t get caught in the genocide-debate tar pit as well.
What’s happening is evil. That’s relatable, both in the problem and potential solutions. Whether it’s genocide under some international convention strikes me as a counterproductive distraction that replaces something horrifying with something boring.
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> Firing from schools, hospitals and resendential buildings.
I really don't want to descend into countless counterexamples, but that's how virtually every military or militia wages war, including the IDF. I assume your confusion on this issue may be due to a lack of familiarity with the subject.
Usually never ever has anything to do with malevolence (eg. in an attempt to use the counter strike as a propaganda story). More often, it's just a matter of convenience, logistics, and the realities of operating in populated areas.
If there's one thing that CIA manuals on training militias stressed on, or any military history book in that regard, it's that soldiers need to be fed and supported. Or they'll find ways to meet those needs without you.
Are you saying that every militia and army use hospitals as a base from which to wage war? (e.g. firing rockets, artillery shells, etc)
Units will use any reinforced or cover position to carry their objective.
Even roofs of civilians apartments, let alone reinforced structures such as hospitals, town halls, schools, etc if they can't use alternatives.
Even antique frontal wars used terrain to their advantage. That's why we wrote rules of engagement, but if the bigger powers themselves abuse them, how can you expect militias that have to carry guerrilla or urban tactics to stand by them?
Well, every choice has a consequence. For Israel the choice was accept rockets fired on Israeli towns on a regular basis(not settlements, btw, just towns within the 1948 UN recognized borders of Israel) or respond.
BTW, The response came after texting the residents, distributing leaflets and annoncening in every way possible that the place is going to be bombed.
BTW (2), For years Israel avoided bombing dense residential areas, despite knowing the origin of those rockets.
The whole world saw US soldiers in the Gulf states hiding in hotels when US bases were struck.
There is a severe lack of construction materials in Gaza. My guess is that Hamas has a choice between using what's left for tunnels, or losing the war.
That's a slight mix of cause and effect. There is a shortage of construction material because Hamas uses it not for the wellbeing of the citizens of Gaza, but for the construction of border crossing tunnels into Israel.
Sure, that's Israel's purported reason for all of its blockades. The result, as in most cases in history, is that civilians bear the overwhelming brunt of the impact while the military resistance digs further in, switches to guerilla tactics, and becomes increasingly popular amongst civilians.
Regardless, my original point stands that Hamas do not have the means and resources both to build public shelters for everyone and to continue its military efforts.
That's why I mentioned that it was very shallowly understandable at the beginning. Not after few years of massacre.
Interesting part about your commentary is, that you completely ignored the West bank I mentioned. Place when Israel forces killed hundreds of children with sole reason or colonisation of land belonging to someone else. Or at least I never found any other explanation for behavior at the West Bank.
They are deliberately targeting tent encampments. Given the IDF mil tech I guess they can deliberately target and destroy any kind of shelter.
May, 2024: At least 21 killed in Israeli attacks on tent camp near Gaza’s Rafah [4]
September, 2024: An Israeli strike on humanitarian tent camp for displaced Gazans killed at least 19 people [5]
December 2024: Seven attacks on tent encampments in the past two weeks kill 34 Palestinians including 10 children [2]
April 2025, Israeli strikes kill Palestinians in tented area for displaced in Gaza [3]
January, 2026: Israeli airstrikes targeted tents belonging to displaced people [1]
[1] https://www.reutersconnect.com/item/israeli-airstrikes-targe...
[2] https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ohchr-opt-press-release-...
[3] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yrl891j23o
[4] https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/28/at-least-21-kil...
[5] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/an-israeli-strike-on-huma...
How do you place millions of people in bomb shelters when your neighbour of a few kms away bombs you any time it wants from fighter jets? Have you not seen the footage of bombs dropped with no warnings in the middle of the streets, on residential buildings, on schools, on hospitals?
Israelis have bomb shelters because have ample warning and an enemy that is barely able to hit anything.
This blaming the victims of your own bombings for not taking shelter- actually accusing them to be responsible for their own deaths and those of their relatives, parents, wives, children, is some of the most revolting and shameless Israeli propaganda.
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"Israeli authorities and security forces deliberately targeted Palestinian children, resulting in genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes in Gaza, and war crimes in the occupied West Bank, an independent U.N. inquiry said on Tuesday."
Literally the first paragraph of the article we're commenting.
There's only one honorable response, and it couldn't be simpler: A complete and immediate arms and dual-use technology embargo of Israel, combined with more general sanctions. South Africa should be the model: Just ostracize them as much as possible. Say what you will about Russia, but Israel can never be self-sufficient, and China (justifiably) appears to despise them, so sanctions and embargoes would be substantially more effective in correcting their behavior.
This will never happen, and we know why. It's disgusting. The "enlightened," "liberal" west's principles have never been more clearly on display: "Why should we concern ourselves with the wholesale slaughter of innocent children in a pent-up captive civilian population? Not our problem."
I think the why has more to do with capture of our media and politicians through collusion, bribery and blackmail. Epstein, etc.
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I'd argue that Israel is, in fact, behaving worse than South Africa ever did. Apartheid-era South African government was a nightmare, but didn't engage in mass murder (or, uh, "collateral damage") on an Israeli scale. Actually a few orders of magnitude separate them.
That slaughter is worse than discrimination should be obvious. If you discriminate against somebody you harm their dignity and you narrow their future possibilities; if you murder somebody you rob them of everything, including their dignity and every possible future.
I'd also argue, and I think that this should be perfectly self-evident, that however a group may have suffered in the past, it does not give them a moral right to impose suffering on others in the present. No such moral right can possibly exist.
Isn't "whoever saves one life saves the world entire" supposed to be a Jewish moral teaching? How can this be reconciled with a profound indifference to civilian casualties in captive populations?
> I'd argue that Israel is, in fact, behaving worse than South Africa ever did.
Nelson Mandela's grandson agrees.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mandelas-grandson-...
South African here. There is a vast gap between what the elite believe and what the world perceives of South Africa, and what South Africans think.
Most South Africans have a very low interest in Israel-Palestine. Anecdotally, in person Palestinian rally struggle to get more than 100 people.
There are plenty of domestic issues which people care about more. For one, there are 20,000-25,000 murders here per year. Relatively the deaths in Gaza are much higher (it is about 25x smaller), but when people march its for the 127,000 murdered here over the last 5 years, not the 70,000 killed in Gaza.
That is the sign of a healthy society. Unlike many countries in the West that have bought into a billion dollar hate campaign sponsored by Qatar and amplified by strategic rivals like Russia and China.
Here's what some South African's think of him:
"AbaThembu King Buyelekhaya Dalindyebo says he has removed Mandla Mandela as the traditional leader of Mvezo in the Eastern Cape."
"[His spokesperson] accused Mandela of being more concerned about the people of Palestine than his own people. "Palestine must give him a place to rule; they make him a chief there. Here in the land of AbaThembu, he is no longer welcome,” he said."
https://www.citizen.co.za/news/south-africa/politics/abathem...
South Africa wasn’t at war, and the two situations have nothing in common.
Life expectancy in Gaza before Oct 7 was 75.5 years. Life expectancy in South Africa today is 65.5 years.
South Africa with its incompetence has done worse than Israel with its “apartheid”.
Fair point, I just wonder if the apartheid emerged because of the war or vice versa? Either way, a society that needs perpetual war to justify apartheid feels unsustainable.
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This is really sickening - if North Korea or any other less connected country did this, you would quickly see their national (tech) companies being sanctioned by the west. I never understood how a country like Israel, given the history of its own tribe, can themselves become so gruesome and have a hugely state-supported private spy-tech sector that supports the worst autocrates in the world as long as the money flows to them.
Hopefully Israel will have lost American support in a generation or so, who cares what happens to them after that.
Well, you should still care. They have nukes and have promised to use them were Tel Aviv to fall.
I suspect that without American support, they would have to do quite a bit to change their behavior. They probably can't afford the current level of conflict on their own. It would force them to negotiate with their neighbors.
Or double down with India or China. (Or a right-wing Europe.)
Iran[1] may also have all the pieces for nukes by then[2], hence Bibi's fraught gamble with the decapitation strikes, and present desperation to continue - even escalate - hostilities.
1. Or the UAE, which has shown interest in nuclear tech, perhaps for strictly peaceful purposes
2. I.e. attain nuclear latency, and finally make real what Netanyahu has been warning the world for decades: that Iran is "weeks away from a nuclear bomb"
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> they can then just go and progrom all the Jews in Israel
If that's really Iran's intent, how do you explain that ~10,000 Jews live peacefully in Iran?
When there used to be a community of 100k Jews in Iran? In other words more than 90% driven out after the revolution? Prominent Jewish figures and businessmen - most notably Habib Elghanian - were arrested on fabricated charges of espionage and were executed. Community members were forced to closely monitor their actions and maintain a quiet public presence. Down to 10% in 50 years - and in hiding basically - that's your benchmark for Arab tolerance of Jewish minorities? How are the Christians doing in the Middle East? The Yezidis? The Baha'is? The reason middle eastern Muslims hate the Jews so much is simply that they won't bow down. Won't allow their women to be turned into sex slaves with impunity. And have built themselves a successful western country.
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You kind of went around my question but I appreciate the insight, that's new to me.
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First thing coming into mind is the number of companies and individuals blocking Russians in the beginning of the war before any sanctions out of virtue signalling.
> As of 2024, 38 states have passed bills and executive orders designed to discourage boycotts of Israel
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws#Anti-BDS_laws_in_th...
I felt that quite badly at the start of that war, multiple accounts closed, including my brokerage account, bank account rejected, and a flood of emails asking me to divulge loads of documentation to get them to consider giving them back to me!
I don't actually live in Russia, if I did, it would be even worse.
Virtue signaling that consist of blocking Russia is double virtue. You do the good thing and you motivate others to do the good thing too.
We need more of that.
Yep, Xero published a blog post outlining their stance on Russia and outlining their sanctions (it was literally less than a handful of accounts for them):
https://blog.xero.com/news-events/our-position-on-ukraine-an...
But they didn't do anything for Israel. Actually, at the height of the genocide, they decided to invest in an Israeli company.
slow claps
Israel has had a hand up each US politician’s ass since the 1980s. Israel owns all of them.
Careful: AIPAC may call you antisemitic for commenting on their effective lobbying
Edit: I wonder if the (predictable) downvoters are following the news https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/22/politics/mamdani-aipac-new-yo...
Wait. The Jews really DOES run everything?
They said Israel, not Jews. Don't be antisemitic.
classic antisemitic libel
Many many countries got sanctioned into oblivion or color-revolutionized into US-loyalty for far far less (often just for not being aligned with the US).
It is even more sickening and outrageous if you view it through that lens.
Just curious to know what is acceptable proportionate response for:
1. What was done on October 7? Assuming that some kind of response from Israel was acceptable.
2. Against Israel for what Israel is doing now? Assuming that Israel is over reacting.
Maybe if we can come with a framework for what is acceptable, world can force certain behavior.
Edited for formatting.
It's always analysis of Israel's response and zero soul searching on the Palestinian side.
Oct 7th was a border security failure. The appropriate response was reinforcing the border and ensuring that gazans cant escape. Letting the gazans out was one of the biggest security blunders of the 21st century. Israel knew the government of gaza wants israel wiped off the map, this stuff isnt a surprise or anything. Israel absolutely had the capability of keeping the gazans in, they blew it. I see that this is close to victim blaming, but the thing is that both sides are victims here, all the arguments involve victim blaming. Israel already tried occupying gaza, they knew it doesnt work and would just make things worse.
Arguments can certainly be made about the hostages, but I think its clear that the gazan war was not really about the hostages.
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> On the 7th Oct, Gazans took selfies in front of a tank on the border where you can see that the gun still had its cap on. The soldiers, confronted with a mob dressed as civilians, did not open fire, and were subsequently dragged out and killed.
They were understaffed.
Look, Im not some expert on border control so Im not going to claim I know what the cure here is. I do know that israel is a wealthy country with mandatory military service though. They had the manpower to staff the wall with guards with some sort of non lethal crowd control. Gaza is a prison camp, prisons never seem to throw up their hands and claim its impossible to keep the prisoners in. I understand the Israelis need to keep the gazans locked up. The israelis shouldve understood that people dont like being locked up though and they shouldve prepared better for attempted jail breaks.
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> they just need Gaza to not attack them
The only way to ensure this is by not letting them leave, so yes, they do need to lock them up to ensure their security.
Egypt has no interest in taking gaza which is why Israel feels the need to keep them locked up. The gazans are indigenous to israel which is why they are israels responsibility until someone else takes them. Obviously it would be nice for israel if the prisoners never tried to break out but that isnt a realistic outcome, and Israel knows it. If youre going to set up a prison camp you need to heavily guard the border or bad things will happen. Im not saying the initial invasion afterwards is immoral, it was just a bad decision that wouldnt have been needed if the israelis just protected the border. It was a bad decision because it predictably led to numerous atrocities which was exactly what hamas wanted. Israel is without a doubt less safe now then they were on oct 6 when they were close to opening diplomatic relations with all the middle east countries other than iran.
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All of the gazans are descendants of refugees from the nakba. Its not like anyone drew a shape, the israelis suggested the palestinians go somewhere else so they did. But no other country let them in so now israel is forced to deal with the fallout. Obviously if someone from jordan showed up thats not israels problem, but when israel refuses to let the refugees they are responsible for have their own state they remain responsible for the refugees.
Anybody surprised at this point? In any case, this is the same UN that has accepted israel, and israel lobbied US vetoes to Palestine entry into the UN again and again, even then a broad majority of the world have voted in favor of granting membership, does any of what they do or pretend to represent matters anymore?
At this point, leaders should create a new security council excluding the permanent SC members, set rules around voting on issues where every country has an equal voice, create enforcement frameworks and then invite the SC members with equal footing.
The proposed reforms led by the likes of Brazil, Germany and India are not getting a lot of traction. Maybe if they included everyone else they'd have a better chance.
“Systematic deliberate targeting of children as policy”.
I don’t see why this is controversial.
Pro-Palestine people have seen the overwhelming field reports that prove this and Pro-Israel people actually are in favor of targeting these kids because they might grow resentful of Israel and join Hamas.
> Pro-Israel people actually are in favor of targeting these kids because they might grow resentful of Israel and join Hamas.
I know many in that camp, and this sounds bananas to me.
Look up snipers taking legs off kids. It’s been reported for a long time.
Maybe you don’t know them well enough. If you inquiry about the killed children most agree is sad but ultimately they believe it has to be done.
See also this This American Life episode, where doctors visiting Gaza saw a disturbing number of children with direct gunshot wounds to the head and chest: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/859/transcript
Had seen a testimony of an European doctor coming from Gaza saying that each week or month the hospitals where flooded with young males coming from the humanitarian food queues with a different gunshoot type. There was the month of the knees, the month of head gunshoots, and the month of the young men flooding the hospitals with their testicles blown off, all because they wanted to pick some food for their families.
and Hamas shot them
Oy vey watcha doin rabbi
> and Hamas shot them
Please don't offend our intelligence. Bullets have makers.
As I said, I forced myself to read until the end. If you do the same, you'll notice the part about the small titanium fragments lodged on the heads and legs of mutilated toddlers. Fragments that came from "made in USA" grenades. I'm pretty sure that US government is not selling this weapons to Hamas.
What Israel has done and keeps doing is beyond evil, but if they think that are smarter than the war criminologists of the planet; If they think that can exit unscathed from this in the end with just a few Jedi mind tricks, they are not just evil, but also extremely dumb and suicidal
The excuse will be that these are just casualties of war and we'll shrug it off and move on, whereas the imaginary beheaded babies from October 7 are unforgivable and excuse any action on Israel's behalf.
Boycott. Divestment. Sanctions. Use any legal means to stop funding this genocide and make Israel's leadership accountable. We all love our comfy white collar jobs and would rather not rock the boat, but not doing the little we can do (e.g. stop using Israeli suppliers and services) makes us supporters.
I was trying to pay attention to the actual claim and I got: 1. Children died during the ceasefire 2. Israel is using larger bomb payloads than it should (according to who?) in civilian areas 3. Higher percentage of child deaths than in earlier conflicts
Still, for me, doesn't add up to "Israel deliberately targetted gaza children" - is the claim that this is systemic? Or rampant? Or just by some individuals? And how do we know?
The European Press Prize this year went to "What the wounds are telling us", an investigation into the wounds of Palestinian dead children. I recommend you read it.
https://www.europeanpressprize.com/article/what-the-wounds-a...
I am interested to know the overall scale at which this is happening. Disturbing but illuminating, thanks for the link!
I'm digging into this a bit. Looks like the 114 figure (certainly a conservative number) occurred early in the conflict, in the period of late Oct 2023 until March 2024 - in the same time the hamas health ministry reported ~25000 casualties; the deliberately targeted children account for ~0.4% of all the casualties, and ~1.5% of all child casualties. Enough to say "Israel is deliberately targeting"?
After 20.000 children assasinated, with the necessary support and complicity of Biden and Trump governments, yes. Is more than enough.
I have to force myself to read that link until the end. And it says what everybody in Europe has been saying for years, but Israel people still refuses to see.
We need to develop technology able to register this events even from a big distance. Even if the phones are forbbiden. And the war criminals must be judged and jailed, as they are not clearly part of the humanity anymore. A drone able to snatch and remove snippers alive if they are killing children is required.
Tragic as it is, 20,000 children can be lost even in a justified war. It looks like historically, retaliatory wars are initially especially aggressive, lethal and indiscriminate (likely due in part to emotional soldiers who desire to punish whoever they are retaliating against). Is Israel conducting a war here that aligns with the historical trend?
yes, unfortunately this is all evidence people here needed
The claim in report is that Israel deliberately targeted newborn delivery hospitals and similar. I don't think they have proof of "deliberately", I assume hamas people could use those hospitals as potentially safe zones for gathering, weapons stashes, etc.
It's pretty clear Israel systematically kills Palestinian children to those paying attention. According to a public statement by the United Nations, Gaza has the highest number of child amputees per capita in the world. At least 21,289 children have been killed. They starve the population, drive them out of their homes. (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...) This is the modus operandi of the Zionist belief system. It is a colonial settler ideology and they have to eradicate the natives, much like American settlers killed the native people and destroyed their way of life until they could keep them in tiny """sovereign nations""" where they would be crushed if they every truly tried to display any real sense of sovereignty. To be sovereign is to have a government with a monopoly on violence, the "reservations" are occupied.
I'm trying to see the argument for "Israel deliberately targets children", closest thing I got was "Israel has made lots of children into amputees" - can you provide more info?
I think its obvious that there will be a lot of children amputees in active denstly populated warzone.
I think there's an ethical difference between "we need to wage war on a densely populated area", and "we need to wage war on a densely populated area, let's make sure to harm the vulnerable people we encounter there". This is what I'm trying to differentiate between.
We won't know without analyzing protocols how Israel picks targets.
Also, harming civilians is the norm in modern world. Russia absolutely deliberately is targeting critical civilian infra in Ukraine (e.g. grid during cold winter).
If the effect of your actions is a war crime, you are a war criminal.
If the Russians also do it, that is additional evidence of war crimes.
But of course you're not arguing that collateral damage proves war crime?
> If the effect of your actions is a war crime, you are a war criminal.
war crimes usually defined by intent: were civilians targeted intentionally.
Were civilians targeted intentionally on 9/11? Or was it just a targeted assassination strike on some bankers? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_July_2024_al-Mawasi_attack) If I am attacked and legally have the right to self defense, but kill the neighbors "in the process of" defending myself because I fired 300 rounds at the attacker. Is that okay? I didn't do it "intentionally". But it is convenient that I hate them.
I gotta be honest, the phrase “colonial settler ideology” gets an instant eye roll and detracts from the rest of your statements. Most nations on the planet are formed of settlers unless you think there were always Russians in Siberia, or there were always Anglo-Saxons on Albion.
Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations about "Land Back" or reparations for those affected by these systems, which often lead to nowhere. The distinction is this is happening today.
Even Reuters can not hide this anymore. After years of genocide, UN remembers it, it is something. Now let's see what will be the punishment of this genocide, this is not the first report.
Were are the UN sanctions on Israel? Still none? UN can go f*k themselves then.
Needing so many years to get the courage to say the world genocide, where everybody had seen for years Israel turning little children into little flesh chunks, slowly unfurl in horrid technicolor in world TV, is just another part of the problem. UN is useless.
> Needing so many years to get the courage to say the world genocide, where everybody had seen for years Israel turning little children into little flesh chunks, slowly unfurl in horrid technicolor in world TV, is just another part of the problem. UN is useless.
People really should try to avoid conflating war with genocide, both typically result in some civilian deaths.
At this point, we're all useless.
The circumstances of little Hind Rajab's death plays on my mind every single day, and haunts me. The fact something as brazen and blatant as that could happen, and the world did nothing.
Truly a stain on our generation.
Hind Rajab. Sidra Hassouna. Reem and Khaled.
The premie babies at Al-Nasr hospital.
Over a hundred bombed hospitals.
The Irish president's sister kidnapped and abused.
Assassinating negotiation teams and scientists.
Murders of whole families who dared to speak out to the world.
Running over a teenager with their hands zip-tied behind their backs with Caterpillars®.
The paramedic massacre in Rafah.
The hundreds of journalists. The tens of thousands of children. The doctors raped to death.
The people who never get mentioned in these lists of atrocities, buried in mass graves with their children, hands tied.
The people dying from n-order effects, slowly, painfully, barely noticed or counted.
...
And little/no sanctions from our civilized Western democracies. (Except on the people calling it out, who can't use a credit card or bank any more, or even receive donations.)
We are far worse than useless. The stain is set for all time.
A reminder for any Americans reading this: 98.15% of 2024 voters chose a Presidential candidate that supported the above.
True. I have a friend in Southern Lebanon who I met a few years ago at a conference. Our group chat is eerie - we haven't heard from him in over two months. We just don't know how he is, and it's sickening.
What about the death of the bibas children who were tortured to death by Hamas? There is plenty of bad on both sides.
> What about
ism.
You just did an ism.
Congrats you win?
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Yemen and Sudan aren't doing this with our support, and while wagging their finger at us to better support them in their crimes against humanity.
Calling that out at all isn't "only criticizing Israel". That framing suggests wanting the crimes to continue. In that case, from what position would you think you could wag your finger from?
It's also not anti-Israel to be pro-human-rights and pro-accountability. Just like it's not anti-American to be against the Trump admin, or anti-China to be against the CCP, and so on.
The above really aren't complex things, they're not even the baseline, they're part of the baseline. You absolutely have to be this tall to ride, and if you aren't, your insults of others, such as calling them racists, are likewise worthless. If you just have the same 3 lines regardless of input, you're being an NPC, some persistent flavor animation in the background, and we can just turn down the render distance for those to 0. Feel free to actually log in and participate anytime.
Wrong again. There are multiple countries involved in the war in Sudan. Saudi Arabia is one of them - the West's closest ally in the Middle East. We supply Saudi Arabia with nearly all its weapons and intel, which they pass it on to their side in Sudan. Oh, I didn't know that actually... Have you actually done any reading? Been to the region?
It's not just the raw suffering but also the sense of systematic oppression between groups that triggers people. Yemen or Sudan don't get nearly enough attention because most people find those conflicts harder to understand in terms of "good and evil" than the Israel-Palestine conflict.
We are bombarded by the suffering because it suits the left self hate narrative and Hamas operatives are always on hand with expensive photography equipment. Palestinian suffering is literally part of their strategy to turn the kids in America against Israel. It's a dumb strategy, but Palestinian society has chosen dumb strategies for nearly a hundred years now. Antizionists will sacrifice an infinite number of Palestinians to its hateful fantasy of destroying Israel.
Its a good strategy for anti western powers to fracture the left and drive up extremism and destabilization.
whataboutism
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Even literal nazis were stopped at some point.
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Flagging a serious topic like this indicates motive in a way that's unbecoming.
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Please don't engage in whataboutism on HN.
Posts like this should not be on hn in the first place.
Within the given context it is a valid question.
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Is the killing of five-year-old Hind Rajab, alongside six of her family members, and two paramedics who came to rescue her, also a reach? Please, help me draw the line.
I need to push down emotions to put it this way, but I think it's also important to consider that tragedies and losses of life such as hind rajab are possible even in a justified war.
> is a reach
I mean, if you are sure there are children and there is a quite a lot of children there, it's deliberate.
It's actually one of the places in the Middle East with a higher birth rate than Israel itself, and a very high population density.
If you are shooting into the crowd which includes children, you are shooting at children even when you are not pointing at them precisely.
Individual events need to be considered on a case-by-case basis, but surely you would agree that if your combat enemy is hiding amidst children it is they who have deliberately chosen for those children to become collateral damage?
This is rising fast. 61 points at this moment.
Doubled to 103 points in 6 minutes
And flagged 36 minutes after submission right around 104
Flagged and off the home page. Now at 106 points.
After another half hour it is at 134 points despite being flagged.
It's taken another 5 hours to reach 201 points, despite being flagged and removed from the home page at around 100 points.
It is no longer flagged.
431 points after 18 hours. On the 3rd page. Many of my comments have been flagged. Meanwhile many hateful comments including swearing have not.
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Or it could be that the Reuters article just came out a few hours ago
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mods are still sleeping
Were hurty words written here?
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If you look at the bottom of the page, you’ll find guidelines that mention which content is welcomed: “Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.”
That said, I find this particularly of interest here given the growing attention to the use of algorithms and AI (including generative AI) for surveillance and targeting of palestinians.
Very well, you are of cause correct and come to think of it that guideline makes total sense, there is more to hacking than technology. Hence my comment was unfortunate a bit misguided.
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Personally, I find the political machinations around this conflict particularly interesting.
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Political? What about simply human ?
I unfortunately agree with you, selfishly. This used to be the forum where one could mostly find interesting technology and ideas and discuss them with intelligent people. An escape from the standard online hell and it’s people who must truly enjoy conflict - which my body instead interprets as anxiety and terror.
But now it’s here, and so are they. It’s probably the same people. It’s probably me.
Genocide is political news?
Lots of tech companies involved in this genocide[1]. Unfortunately tech has bad antecedents, as IBM also supported genocide in WWII[2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_involved_in_...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
Many of the companies in that list have essentially zero link to the events in Gaza. E.g. a Swiss company that supplies coal to Israel is considered complicit in genocide. Because Israelis having electricity means complicity in genocide, apparently. Hyundai is included because it sells vehicles to Israel, allegedly those machines were used to destroy Palestinian building but the cited source doesn't mention Hyundai: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5923-...
Might as well have titled the page "companies that do business with Israel".
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I condemn the terrorist that stands behind a hostage; I condemn the sniper that takes the shot anyway.
what if the terrorist is repeatedly launching rockets?
Arguably, incidental civilian deaths are morally permissible if they constitute the only effective way to achieve reasonable military objectives. In this specific case, the objective is something like "disable Hamas' capacity to attack Israel". It's dubious whether this is achievable with the methods Israel has used so far. By most accounts Hamas is just as large as ever, is reasserting control over Gaza, and is likely to be rebuilding its stockpile.
The human shields narrative has long been debunked.
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> In October 2025, the ICJ issued an advisory opinion [wikidata] finding that Israel's claims that UNRWA had been infiltrated by Hamas were unsubstantiated. The advisory opinion also said that Israel's decision to end cooperation with UNRWA and restrict humanitarian aid to Gaza breached its obligations under the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter. It furthermore found that Israel's Gaza Humanitarian Foundation was not an adequate substitute, noting that more than 2,100 Palestinians had been killed near its distribution points and that conditions in Gaza had deteriorated to the point that international experts declared a famine in some areas in August. The ICJ further held that the mass transfer or deportation of civilians within occupied territory is prohibited, citing Israeli measures that forced large populations into overcrowded areas and severely restricted UN access. It also ruled that the two Knesset laws ending cooperation with UNRWA in the occupied territories were unlawful, noting that 360 UNRWA staff had been killed during the conflict. The court concluded that Israel, as an occupying power, had unlawfully impeded aid delivery, used starvation as a method of warfare, and failed to respect the immunities of UN personnel and premises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA_and_Israel#International...
the UN claimed that the UN agency was just fine... no s**.
The ICJ is legally and structurally independent of the UN. What specifically do you disagree with about the advisory opinion?
"The International Court of Justice (ICJ; French: Cour internationale de justice, CIJ), or colloquially the World Court, is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations (UN)"
"The Court is composed of a panel of 15 judges elected by the UN General Assembly and Security Council for nine-year terms"
Literally, from the first few paragraphs of wikipedia. People don't read these days.
If the UN general assembly (mostly anti israel) selects the judges how is it "structurally independent of the UN"?
I've often heard defenders of Israel crap on the UN General Assembly like it's some woke antifa type organization, but it's one representative per country, chosen by the country's government. If almost every country in the world is constantly officially condemning you, perhaps they are not the problem.
Well, given that between 2015 and 2024 alone, the General Assembly adopted 154 resolutions against Israel. That's more than Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Russia, China *combined*, I find it a bit ... unfair, wouldn't you say?
More than 14,500 children were killed by Israel in that period.
14,500 / 154 = more than 94 children per resolution. Seems fair.
How many children did "Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Russia, China combined" kill in this period, I hear you whatabout: Highest reasonable estimates are ~5,000–10,000 children.
... So, no. I don't think it's unfair.
Now let's compare how many sanctions have been inflicted on each country above. If you measure by number of sanctioned individuals/entities, a rough ranking would be:
1: Russia. 2: Iran. 3: North Korea. 4: Sudan. 5: China. 6: Israel.
... So if you're trying to hint that the whole world is only against genocide because they're antisemitic, the facts you're referring to don't really seem to back you up. At all.
Again, children got killed because their school was used as a ground base to fire rockets from. Do you expect Israelis to allow Hamas rockets to fall in Israeli schools? That's not a reasonable expectation.
The choice hamas forces israel to make is cruel and inhuman, that is direct consequence of their radical islamic belief of martirdom. They do not see death like the same way as the west. To them (and I'm not talking about all palestinians, for sure, only Hamas senior leadership which governs Gaza) dead children is a weapon against Israel. In light of this, all their actions finally make sense:
1. No civil defenses, or shelters - just tunnels. 2. Firing from schools and hospitals, as well as hiding weapons and ammo in those places. 3. Arming and sending children to fight
That's the most reasonable explanation (which many palestinian extremists have even voiced themselves)
> children got killed because their school was used as a ground base to fire rockets from.
I don't really know how to talk to people who think killing children - by the tens of thousands - is ever justified, but maybe this will help you: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t-mMt3c3ngQ
Well, I presume you never had to make the choice between just living with rocket barrages as a daily routine, this is something that’s incredibly hard to fathom. For years and years.
Golda Meir once said that peace between Israel and the Palestinians will come once the Palestinians will love their children more than they hate the Jews.
Here is perhaps something that could sway your opinion https://youtu.be/g-xfCH3PQT0?si=aQ3O6g_0v_-2mzf_
Memri TV is well known for using mistranslations and selective quotation in order to portray Arabs as anti-semitic and extremist: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/may/15/arabic...
For all I know, this is the equivalent of filming Westboro Baptist Church members and framing it as the average American's views on homosexuality.
Did you encounter any mistranslation here specifically? it's pretty easy to translate the video with Gemini or a different AI tool. I did it - I ran it through ElevenLabs transcription and GPT5.5 based translation of the transcript, this is what I got:
00:00:16,479 --> 00:00:34,520 [Speaker 0] And I pray in every prayer — every prayer, every prayer — that I, your father, your sisters, girls and boys, all of you, will be martyrs for the sake of God. When death comes to us, may our whole family be martyrs for the sake of God. And of course, I am proud of Muhammad. I am proud, praise be to God. I mean, praise be to God, praise be to God, all my children are religious and good.
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:34,919 [Speaker 1] God has willed it / God bless.
00:00:34,919 --> 00:00:49,959 [Speaker 0] And I, praise be to God — by God, by God — my children and my grandchildren, and all of their family, if all of them were martyred for the sake of God, I would be happy. I mean, praise be to God, I love this path. I mean, I feel that this path is salvation.
Clearly, there's no mistranslation here, the intention is very clear.
> and selective quotation
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the Middle East conflict does not align people according to tribal, religious, and political groupings, as well as international alliances.
Given that Jews are 0.2% of the world’s population, in contrast to a very large population of people openly biased against Israel, it’s no surprise that when you take a global popular vote that Jews will lose. The UN is not a neutral institution.
Sure I understand how Arab or Muslim countries might vote against Israel reflexively, but it's not just them, it's almost the entire world.
Go look at this list of Israel related General Assembly resolutions in 2025:
https://unwatch.org/2025-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-...
The typical vote is like 142-6. The Israeli claim is that almost the entire world are a bunch of anti-Semites that hate them for who they are. Perhaps it's not who they are but what they are doing.
There are roughly 50 to 57 countries where Muslims make up the majority of the population. Add the countries that are heavily dependent on them, and you end up with a game that is often decided before a single ballot is cast.
From your link: “From 2015 through 2024, the UN General Assembly has adopted 173 resolutions against Israel and 80 against other countries.”
Do you seriously think that throughout this time Israel has been that much worse than all other countries?
There are many other indications that the UN is biased about Israel:
Only one country has its own permanent agenda Item 7 in the UN.
Palestinian refugees have their own organization vs refugees from all over the world, with almost 10x the budget per person.
In the UNESCO description of Jerusalem it says “The Wailing Wall delimits the quarters of the different religious communities”.
There are many other examples like this.
Not a single country in the world opened its doors to Jewish refugees during the Holocaust. So the majority of the world can absolutely be wrong.
> Not a single country in the world opened its doors to Jewish refugees during the Holocaust.
Not one except USA.
And Sweden, Dominican Republic, Denmark, France, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Poland, Bolivia, Spain, the Soviets and all the other countries that allowed safe crossing. Even Italy hid Jews... so what history books do you studied?.
And the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_refugees_from_German-oc...
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It’s still pretty surprising that a country so armed to the teeth with ground troops and missile defense systems would have let Oct 7 happen for as long as it did, and with so many people dying. I agree that it was wrong of Israel to do that.
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The report states they are not bombing military targets, so you can't explain the numbers away just by saying Hamas may recruit children.
> Israeli forces continued to use high-payload munitions and weapons with wide-area effects in densely populated residential areas despite mounting child casualties, the commission said.
Ok, first: The author sits on the board of HonestReporting and writes for NGO Monitor, UN Watch, and the Henry Jackson Society. These are pro-Israel media-monitoring and advocacy organisations.
It paints Hamas's Ministry of Health as a propaganda machine incapable of an honest number (sure) while Israeli military estimates (the 25,000 combatant figure, al-Ahli) are accepted at face value -- seriously? The IDF has been proven to lie numerous times.
Also, the article still relies on the MoH's numbers when it's convenient to the point it's trying to make.
The Gaza Mortality Survey, published in The Lancet Global Health in early 2026, run by Michael Spagat who's a war-mortality specialist (Kosovo, Iraq), with a long record of debunking inflated war-death claims, estimated 75,200 violent deaths between Oct 7, 2023 and Jan 5, 2025, which is around 25,000 more than the official Gaza Ministry of Health figure for that period.
The Lancet survey found that women, children, and older people comprised 56.2% of violent deaths. An OHCHR analysis separately found that 70% of those killed in residential buildings were women and children.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-1...
Let's see, what else: A ratio of 1.5 civilians per combatant means roughly 40% of all deaths are fighters. If 56% of the dead are women, children, and elderly, then every adult male death would have to be a combatant to reach 40% — which is obviously false.
The Washington Institute concluded that the available data cannot yield a civilian-combatant ratio because the MoH doesn't classify combatant status. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fat...
The combatants numbers: The 25k combatants figure is an estimate from IDF statements while it dismisses the 8.9k figure (militants the IDF actually identified) as absurd. "Let's make up a number and call the only real documented count" -- and whether it itself is real or not is debatable.
Then lies about natural deaths: Yes, there were about 6.3k deaths in Gaza before the genocide started, however it cherry-picks this subtraction while ignoring the corresponding addition. the same surveys that quantify baseline deathhs also find thousands of excess non-violent deaths caused by genocide. The lancet survey has 8.5k excess deaths. The 3.3k confirmed deaths the article cites are below the 6k baseline. Natural deaths are undercounted. Not inflating it.
Hamas kiling Gazans: Sure, but thousands? It's overblowing numbers for the al-Ahli hospital case and then extrapolating a bunch of bs as a result.
There is a genocide going on. We've seen the footage. We have the testimony about the horrors from both IDF soldiers and Palestinians. Why are we disputing numbers like holocaust deniers?
Ok, at least you are engaging.
A few rebutals: > Yes the author is pro-Israel. I would assume the author the Reuters article is anti-Israel. This doesn't automatically disqualify either account.
> The issue is with the MoH is the breakdown of the numbers, not the overall number. No contradiction.
> He provides an alternative to Lancet. His numbers do not follow Lancet, so mixing his calculations with Lancet's is disingenuous.
> Hamas said they had 40k trained fighters which was about 2% of the population. They also recruited heavily throughout the war. Israel has a standing army of 170,000. The area is an active war zone. These numbers are feasible.
> The 8900 is fighters identified by Israel by name. This is an extremely high standard you are applying to identify fighters overall. For example in Ukraine, this standard would identify most of the 200,00 Russians they have claimed to kill to be civilians.
> Your logic is inconsistent. According to you over a 2 year period Israel couldn't kill tens of thousands of fighters in a large active military all over Gaza but could kill tens of thousands of exposed and trapped civilians in the crossfire but Hamas couldn't have harmed a few thousand of those same civilians.
> No genocide.
> This is not disputing numbers. It's disputing the nature of the conflict.
Does Israel has the intent of genocide? I don't think so.
Does Hamas try to maximize civilian casualties with martyrdom? By meshing its combattants with civilians? Yes.
The Geneva convention, unfortunately, allows collateral to a certain extent.
Hamas also executed gazans several times.
Israel does have a very aggressive strategy, but labeling it a genocide doesn't help the Palestinian cause.
Words matter.
Your advice to change how people talk about the dead children does indeed seem motivated, but not to "help the Palestinian cause".
Intent is hard to prove if it is not published.
> Does Israel has the intent of genocide? I don't think so.
Just curious: is there a (hypothetical) red line that Israel would have to cross for you to be convinced? If not, you're biased.
ofc there is if Israel start taking hostages, rape them, ask for stuff for them publicly.
Take a look at the report, it's all in there.
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The USA, the most powerful nation the world has ever see, is powerless to do anything about it.
If the US can't do anything about it, what hope is there for the underfunded UN?
The USA won't do anything about it because the USA is also guilty of heinous war crimes, crimes against humanity and massive violations of human rights at scale - in fact, it is the worst criminal on the world stage when it comes to un-prosecuted war crimes... so Israel facing justice will only mean that the USA will face the same justice, and we all know that there is nothing more heinous in all the world to an American than to be embarrassed by their state facing justice at the hands of any other international entity.
But the terrible tragedy is that this situation is not going to resolve until these countries actually prosecute their war criminals, who have been getting away with it in the current context for 20+ years. Which means the only ones with any power to do anything about the USA/Israels' war criminals, are the citizens of those countries themselves - which is why the situation is just so dire.
Until there is a real appetite for prosecuting ones own war criminals instead of bleating like sheep for the blood of perceived enemies of other states, there will not be the moral stance/altitude required for Americans to do anything effective about the war crimes of any other nation.
Until Americans prosecute their own war criminals they can do nothing effective about Israels', Russias', Ukraines' war criminals, either ...
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I think powerless is entirely the wrong word as they are actively supplying the arms to do it