Besides Ireland and parts of the UK Halloween traditionally hasn't been a thing in Europe and some people are adamantly against it being celebrated. But here in Switzerland in the recent years it's become the night where teenagers/students go out late and vandalize and be nuisances, start fires, etc.
This year it's on a Saturday and there's also general unrest with frequent protests (Israel/Palestine, Kurds, students, etc etc etc) so it's probably going to be worse than usual.
I live in Barcelona, it was no actual protest as the article accurately explain but weaponised youth. It's incredible how completely artificial and easy it was to make happen, literally none of my friends living in the city saw it coming, me included, these riots came out of nowhere.
To me, it was shocking to watch the street interviews with the rioters, where they were just repeating the same exact slogans from the French protests, but badly translated to Spanish (like a literal word-by-word translation that was weird and made no sense).
Just like in France: a planned and legitimate protest turning violent near the end, clashes with the police escalating into riots after hours of tensions.
Here, there was no context to the riots other than "go to plaça Catalunya and break/steal things", no political demand whatsoever, it was a totally opportunistic chaos and nothing like I've seen in France or Spain ever.
Lots of social unrest on every online platform, for example what happened in the days prior to 15M (which thankfully didn't end up in riots, but riots would have been another logical outcome).
This itself seems like propaganda to blame the unrest on TikTok or foreign countries, rather than fundamental issues within Spain or Europe generally.
It can both be true that TikTok was a factor in the increased property damage and that Spanish citizens are unhappy and ready to protest. Or that 130 people were ready to do property damage and there also, TikTok videos.
This doesn't seem like a full article without bothering to interview ANY of the arrested 130 people.
What I will say is that getting tiktoks in front of hundreds of thousands of people in a coordinated way isn't easy, and they won't come out if they weren't already passionate about something. If there are written records proving this was made to cause chaos specifically then they should subpoena tiktok for exact records.
> and they won't come out if they weren't already passionate about something
First time protesting and/or rioting in Barcelona? There is definitively always people taking advantage of our peaceful protests to cause chaos and mayhem, this happens every time there are protests, and especially once the police wants to shut down the events but people want to keep on partying.
> they should subpoena tiktok for exact records
Absolutely, straight up attempts to subvert democracy, should be met with investigations immediately.
Yes, there are.
A popular protest (and even riots!) should come entirely or at least in the vast majority from a sentiment spread across the people. If it's 500 youngsters that come out of the blue following a campaign orchestrated most probably by a foreign state actor, then it's not legitimate.
Yes, we could start doing verbal and mental gymnastics about how an external actor could be legitimately interested to try and drive the political landscape of a country one month before elections, sure. But it's not the point here.
In the US, I heard lots of conspiracies about who was really behind the BLM riots, Charlottesville, Jan 6th, the Trump assassination attempts, etc.
The same thing is happening here in the comments. Everyone is looking for the puppeteer. I’m not sure one way or the other.
On the one hand, it’s true that when you look through history, you often find that there was a “someone” (e.g. the Germans funding the Bolshevik Revolution, or the CIA shenanigans in the Middle East and South America).
On the other hand, can’t these things also legitimately arise from disenfranchised groups without needing to point to a boogie man?
> On the other hand, can’t these things also legitimately arise from disenfranchised groups without needing to point to a boogie man?
I think that's the crux, they do, constantly! We have "real riots" in Spain all the time, and protests, both peaceful and violent ones. We have experience of the actual process of seeing people getting more and more frustrated, and things slowly bubbling until it reaches a threshold, then bubbles over.
This doesn't seem to be that. There is zero political parties/groups involved, which is very uncommon, we have strong groups that are always up for causing some property damages and similar things, when these "real riots" happen, but none of these were involved.
When you have basically groups of individuals all acting in uniform way, based on the same misinformation, with zero association or relation to our existing political factions, then it's quite easy to see that things didn't happen as they "normally" do, that's why people are asking questions right now about it.
The eternal way is: follow the money. Not politician declarations or poster designs. The money. I have some preconceptions about it - based on who could profit from a broken EU - but still, follow the money.
I found it interesting that two of the AI posters in the article have the three-pointed “no kings” crown, and one has a two-pointed version. The AI hallucinated icons from American partisan propaganda into an EU context in a country with a monarchy.
Isn't it suspicious that EU nation most vocal about Israel's atrocities gets targeted by campaigns like these, when Israel has the most advanced propaganda machines globally ?
Israel are easier to blame than the reality, which is some people are entirely feral and will turn legitimate protests into an excuse to riot and loot. It doesn’t need a state actor to amplify this stuff. Just a bunch of idiots in social media bubbles.
> when Israel has the most advanced propaganda machines globally ?
What an interesting claim.
Unless you're saying that despite Israel having the "most advanced propaganda machines" (whatever that means), it's failing miserably. The amount of hate towards Israelis and the Israeli government is at all time high.
That’s because the internet briefly left a window open for the masses to attain information outside of controlled channels, but they’ve clamped down on it severely in the last year by giving TikTok US, Paramount, and Warner Brothers to the largest donor of the IDF.
Not failing at all: still no leaders arrested, no UN security council decision, not even sanctions by the EU. Any other developed nation would have had already seen more serious consequences.
Besides Ireland and parts of the UK Halloween traditionally hasn't been a thing in Europe and some people are adamantly against it being celebrated. But here in Switzerland in the recent years it's become the night where teenagers/students go out late and vandalize and be nuisances, start fires, etc.
This year it's on a Saturday and there's also general unrest with frequent protests (Israel/Palestine, Kurds, students, etc etc etc) so it's probably going to be worse than usual.
I live in Barcelona, it was no actual protest as the article accurately explain but weaponised youth. It's incredible how completely artificial and easy it was to make happen, literally none of my friends living in the city saw it coming, me included, these riots came out of nowhere.
To me, it was shocking to watch the street interviews with the rioters, where they were just repeating the same exact slogans from the French protests, but badly translated to Spanish (like a literal word-by-word translation that was weird and made no sense).
Solid sign of foreign interference.
Pro Israel media: "Analysis: Riots Show the Price France Has Paid for Turning Against Israel" [0]
[0] https://combatantisemitism.org/special-features/analysis-rio...
yde_java pointed it out on a comment below
What would "seeing riots coming" look like?
Just like in France: a planned and legitimate protest turning violent near the end, clashes with the police escalating into riots after hours of tensions.
Here, there was no context to the riots other than "go to plaça Catalunya and break/steal things", no political demand whatsoever, it was a totally opportunistic chaos and nothing like I've seen in France or Spain ever.
And no coordination with the camped protestors who’ve been occupying Placa Catalunya for weeks now.
A great many riots result from building pressures and real issues that formed over months or years.
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Brixton_riotWhich is pretty different to this apparent clear blue sky bolt from blue spontaneous remotely weaponised flash mob.
Lots of social unrest on every online platform, for example what happened in the days prior to 15M (which thankfully didn't end up in riots, but riots would have been another logical outcome).
I don't know.
This itself seems like propaganda to blame the unrest on TikTok or foreign countries, rather than fundamental issues within Spain or Europe generally.
It can both be true that TikTok was a factor in the increased property damage and that Spanish citizens are unhappy and ready to protest. Or that 130 people were ready to do property damage and there also, TikTok videos.
As someone from Spain: those posters weren't made by a (native) Spaniard. They contain several weird sentences absolutely nobody uses.
My bet: foreign meddling.
"fake protest"
The people protesting there weren't fake. This is just propaganda.
This doesn't seem like a full article without bothering to interview ANY of the arrested 130 people.
What I will say is that getting tiktoks in front of hundreds of thousands of people in a coordinated way isn't easy, and they won't come out if they weren't already passionate about something. If there are written records proving this was made to cause chaos specifically then they should subpoena tiktok for exact records.
> What I will say is that getting tiktoks in front of hundreds of thousands of people in a coordinated way isn't easy
Literally trivial: https://getstarted.tiktok.com/gofulltiktok?lang=en
> and they won't come out if they weren't already passionate about something
First time protesting and/or rioting in Barcelona? There is definitively always people taking advantage of our peaceful protests to cause chaos and mayhem, this happens every time there are protests, and especially once the police wants to shut down the events but people want to keep on partying.
> they should subpoena tiktok for exact records
Absolutely, straight up attempts to subvert democracy, should be met with investigations immediately.
A subtle form of propaganda is choosing what to call legitimate or not, since there’s really no first principles reason for any legitimacy
Yes, there are. A popular protest (and even riots!) should come entirely or at least in the vast majority from a sentiment spread across the people. If it's 500 youngsters that come out of the blue following a campaign orchestrated most probably by a foreign state actor, then it's not legitimate.
Yes, we could start doing verbal and mental gymnastics about how an external actor could be legitimately interested to try and drive the political landscape of a country one month before elections, sure. But it's not the point here.
I agree with your first statement, but I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here:
> there’s really no first principles reason for any legitimacy
Do you mean in this case, or are you making a blanket statement about the nature of morality and power?
In the US, I heard lots of conspiracies about who was really behind the BLM riots, Charlottesville, Jan 6th, the Trump assassination attempts, etc.
The same thing is happening here in the comments. Everyone is looking for the puppeteer. I’m not sure one way or the other.
On the one hand, it’s true that when you look through history, you often find that there was a “someone” (e.g. the Germans funding the Bolshevik Revolution, or the CIA shenanigans in the Middle East and South America).
On the other hand, can’t these things also legitimately arise from disenfranchised groups without needing to point to a boogie man?
> On the other hand, can’t these things also legitimately arise from disenfranchised groups without needing to point to a boogie man?
I think that's the crux, they do, constantly! We have "real riots" in Spain all the time, and protests, both peaceful and violent ones. We have experience of the actual process of seeing people getting more and more frustrated, and things slowly bubbling until it reaches a threshold, then bubbles over.
This doesn't seem to be that. There is zero political parties/groups involved, which is very uncommon, we have strong groups that are always up for causing some property damages and similar things, when these "real riots" happen, but none of these were involved.
When you have basically groups of individuals all acting in uniform way, based on the same misinformation, with zero association or relation to our existing political factions, then it's quite easy to see that things didn't happen as they "normally" do, that's why people are asking questions right now about it.
The eternal way is: follow the money. Not politician declarations or poster designs. The money. I have some preconceptions about it - based on who could profit from a broken EU - but still, follow the money.
Wherever there's change, there's money to be made. We just don't really care about people making the dosh from changes we like.
poster designs came from an ai subscription which, even if free, is still a better trail than "the money"
I'm not really clear what you're trying to say with your choice of fresh account name, but it seems pretty offensive for no good reason.
Image-generation platforms can be subpoenaed for identifiers associated with the account that produced those images.
The CIA and NED have been creating color revolutions for decades. This isn't new.
https://nonsite.org/change-agent-gene-sharps-neoliberal-nonv...
I found it interesting that two of the AI posters in the article have the three-pointed “no kings” crown, and one has a two-pointed version. The AI hallucinated icons from American partisan propaganda into an EU context in a country with a monarchy.
Isn't it suspicious that EU nation most vocal about Israel's atrocities gets targeted by campaigns like these, when Israel has the most advanced propaganda machines globally ?
Israel are easier to blame than the reality, which is some people are entirely feral and will turn legitimate protests into an excuse to riot and loot. It doesn’t need a state actor to amplify this stuff. Just a bunch of idiots in social media bubbles.
> when Israel has the most advanced propaganda machines globally ?
What an interesting claim. Unless you're saying that despite Israel having the "most advanced propaganda machines" (whatever that means), it's failing miserably. The amount of hate towards Israelis and the Israeli government is at all time high.
That’s because the internet briefly left a window open for the masses to attain information outside of controlled channels, but they’ve clamped down on it severely in the last year by giving TikTok US, Paramount, and Warner Brothers to the largest donor of the IDF.
Not failing at all: still no leaders arrested, no UN security council decision, not even sanctions by the EU. Any other developed nation would have had already seen more serious consequences.
Pro-Israel organizations like this one suggest what you say is true: "Analysis: Riots Show the Price France Has Paid for Turning Against Israel" [0]
[0] https://combatantisemitism.org/special-features/analysis-rio...
Reads like a threat
Digital markets act in EU Tiktok is a gatekeeper. Special rules apply
https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers-portal_...